Removing asbestos

Hi,

I have a few questions I was hoping to get advice by some experts who don't mind sharing. First if you want some background info I am planning on tiling my 14x10 kitchen with 12x12 tiles that currently has a lino sheet floor with that crappy 1/4" underlayment. It is in bad shape and I am 100% convinced the only way I can tile the floor is getting rid of it. The joists are 16" oc, 2x10's, and span about 12'. the house was built in 1972 I think and appears to be the original floor and there is nothing under it.

My first question is am I going to get cancer removing this stuff on a one time basis? How can I protect myself? How should I do this without destroying the plywood under it? How is the underlayment typically attached to the plywood?

I think I want to add a 3/8" plywood then add 1/4" cement board. What is the pro way of doing this? I know my original plywood runs perpendicular to the joists, so should I add the second layer of plywood perpendicular with the subfloor? Then what about the cement board? run it perpendicular to the second layer? So basically every layer is perpendicular to the last? I would think that is how to make it more rigid.

How do I know which plywood to buy? I think I want exterior grade but what am I looking for at a store like menards or lowes that will tell me what I want? I don't want to buy a higher grade than I need for financial reasons.

How do I check if my floor is flat? Where in the process do you fix it, in other words do you fix it after you add the second layer of plywood or after the cement board? How is it done. I think my floor isn't flat because of the underlayment beneath the lino as it seems to be compressed in some areas more than others. So I hope after getting rid of that crap it will be flatter on the original floor and the new plywood will follow suit. But I want to know how to check and address it still.


I hope I can get answers and/or any other comments if something I am doing is incorrect

THANKS!

[TFP Admin]

Originally Posted by Unregistered My first question is am I going to get cancer removing this stuff on a one time basis? How can I protect myself?

There is no way for you to be absolutely positive that anyone here can give you qualified advice, except to say that asbestos has been known to cause health problems in small amounts. Although we have many of the best flooring professionals in the world helping consumers and do-it-yourselfers here, The Floor Pro cannot guarantee you will not be given bad or harmful advice. If you follow any advice here, it will be at your own risk.

I'm sorry, but those are the facts of online life - not just here, but on every website you seek support from. There's just no way to provide unequivocal proof that the people you are dealing with are qualified to give you advice on products and procedures that may be harmful to your safety and/or your health in the short-term, or the long-term.

I don't usually "warn" visitors to our site about things like this. For anyone to think they could get medical advice or prognosis from people who are NOT medical professionals, I felt it was necessary to post this disclaimer. Information about asbestos contamination and its effects on the human body are well publicized and available. Please look here for more information: asbestos dangers - Google Search

I am sure that our pros will guide you in most of your other concerns. Thank you for visiting TFP

TFP Admin

[barrycarlton]

Welcome,

You seem to be a worrier. So maybe the asbestos os best abated by someone else. Although, if the floor you are removing is linoleum it will not have asbestos in it, but the adhesive may. (Always best to have it tested.) I think that if you, as the homeowner remove it yourself, as long as it is not made friable (airborne dust) such as by sanding and/or sawing, you are permitted to remove it. (Check with the OSHA and federal guidelines that are readily avaiable) Cancer has been noted in connection with asbestos with regular and continued exposure. Smoking has been shown to contribute to the develoment of asbestosis.
So the probability of getting cancer from pulling up one non-friable source (your floor) is minimal at best.
It has also been shown that just a very few years ago, standing on an average street corner would expose a person to more asbestos (from the brake linings used for so many decades) than any one time removal of non-friable asbestos containing product.

The rest of your questions are far better answered by the tile professionals on this site.

barry

[Curt Durand]

The "lino" you mentioned, is it actually linoleum or is it sheet vinyl. Armstrong Designer Solarian, other vinyl inlaids and various cushioned vinyl floorings are often described as linoleum. They are not. The asbestos was locked into the material and usually only if sanded or ground would it become a concern. You will probably find that the 1/4" underlayment and the "lino" can be removed as one and you will hardly have to be concerned about asbestos being released into the air. The 1/4" underlayment was probably stapled to the subfloor and can be pried up with a bit of hand labor. A large floor pry bar can be purchased for about $20 and a heavy duty crow bar will, if used together, really works well. Just did 600 sf. of removal of an Armstrong Designer floor installed over a 1/4" luan underlay. Once you figure out that using both tools in tandem works the best, the removal went twice as fast as trying it with just one of the tools. We then removed the particle board, laid down an additional 3/8" layer of plywood and then finished up with 1/2" Duroc. You can use whatever underlay you want. I am old school, remember when Wonderboard was new, 1968, and not totally accepted. I use 1/2" Duroc as it's what I am most familiar with. If you have plywood and not the dreaded particle board subfloor you are already ahead of the game. The important part of laying down the underlayments is just to not match up seams of the underlying layer with the new material. Acceptable grades of plywood (which are commonly found) are AC, BC and CC plugged. AC would be extreme overkill. Sheathing grades, CDX, are not designed for underlayment use. The "D" means the middle layers can have voids in them. As for checking the flatness, just use a 6' level or straightedge and check for areas with more than an 1/8" deviation. I do this on the plywood underlay before putting down the cement backer board. Slide it around and mark areas that are too low and humps with a carpenters pencil and you can fill in or sand down as needed. The Tile Council of America actually calls for flatness within 1/4" within any 10' span. Try an find a 10' straight edge if you can but good luck. Expensive and you need a truck to haul it around.

[rgfloor]

Unless you sand or saw the lino or vinyl you will not have a concern over asbestos. I have been playing in the asbestos dust for forty years and have nnnnooooo priblomos with annny fowl effffectss yettt!
Just kidding!

Just wet it down as you go, it kills the dust.

What kind of tile? I am assuming ceramic tile since you mention cement board. Keep in mind cement board is to be set in mortar and screwed down for best results.

Hi again, thanks for the responses.

I guess I wasn't looking for absolute assurances in heallth hazards, I just wanted some "practical" experiences by those who deal with it and how. I think I recieved my answer in the last couple posts. As for being classified as a "worrier", I was in the mindset of just trying to plan ahead and not being an alarmist or whatever one may say. I have read quite a bit today and there seems to be quite abit of stir over this matter and typical responses to that concern are "have it tested" but nothing explained after that. Ok then I am thinking, if it does have asbestos then what do I do? I didn't want the cover it up with plywood response I found in so many websites because I know I don't want to do that.

As for the question if its actual linolecum or sheet vinyl, I do not know. I just know its one big ugly curled up piece in my kitchen that needs to go and it's been there forever! haha. Glad to hear staples are hopefully what's holding it to the subfloor as when I am in the crawlspace I didn't see fasteners going through and I hoped they didn't glue the whole thing on and risk destroying the good plywood underneath. And yes, rgfloor I am referring to ceramic. So Curt, you're saying just as long as the seams are not on top of each other it doesn't matter which way it goes? I would have thought crossing the grains might make it stronger but I was just guessing. I was thinking of how fiberglass webbing is crossed to make it more rigid and compared it to wood.

Again, thanks for the responses particulary Curt and rgfloor for some experienced advice. Thanks!

[Jon Scanlan]

Coming from down the bottom of the world we say if the backing of the vinyl is like a grey/blue papery looking backing it's asbestos. There was a hydro chord backing that looked similar which was okay but very hard to tell. We say if it is that paper type backing its asbestos. There are different views here about burying it it with another product as they say little bits in houses are a lot better than big piles in land fills. The laws here are very tough as well and for a tradesman to remove it is not worth the expense of buying that house and the fine. The guys will tell you if there is an easier way to tell. A lot of our vinyls used to come from the States. These guys will say if I am wrong. Just another option maybe?

[Curt Durand]

Plywood is made up of numerous crossed grained layers when made. The two top layers are usually aligned and there might be a slight difference in the stiffness but I do not think it would make a "real world" difference. Normal practice is to just stagger the joints so they do not line up. A professional installer can not remove asbestos containing material. The material needs to be professionally abated at great cost. That is why old flooring is covered up. A homeowner can, in Minnesota at least, personally remove and dispose of floor covering which contains asbestos and dispose of it through their normal waste pick ups.

[Jon Scanlan]

[ A homeowner can, in Minnesota at least, personally remove and dispose of floor covering which contains asbestos and dispose of it through their normal waste pick ups.[/quote]

Down here if anything looks like asbestos including old sheets of fibrolite (roofing) it has to go to a special tip at mega bucks. Our rubbish guys just leave it. I think the rest of the world makes rules and our lot double it.

[Jerry Thomas]

When installing plywood underlayments for tile jobs, the underlayment should run the same direction as the main subfloor. It has been shown to be more supportive installed in that manner. My preference is a BC grade of plywood. Keep the joints offset and staggered from the subfloor joints and leave an 1/8" gap between each sheet.

You don't say how thick your subfloor is either... that matters here.

A 1/4" thick CBU is all you need, using 1/2" CBU is no more effective unless you want more height involved.

haha Jon, is it really that bad with the rules there? Interesting stuff about the asbestos regulations and how you installers can't remove it. Well I am just a redneck in Indiana and I will just get it out myself and dispose of it carefully. I just know my tile ain't gonna last with the lino there so its not an option for me to leave it.

Thanks for the tips again guys. Great advice and has helped me very much. I will just follow the standard pracitce of laying the ply they way you guys said. So the only joints I need to tape and fill are just the ones on the CBU and leave the ply joints under open correct?

My subfloor I believe is the 5/8". So that's why I decided to add 3/8 ply and 1/4" cement. ]

Again, thanks. You guys have really answered my questions. I have been on many home forums for various projects and this was by far the most "to the point" answers I hav e recieved.

[Jerry Thomas]

Yes, you need to leave the 1/8" gap open with the plywood. Re-nail your subfloor to the joists. Don't be concerned about hitting a joist when attaching the new underlayment.

[Jon Scanlan]

Its funny/strange that you can remove the asbestos and even sand it and create all this hazard for us poor smoking, drinking etc flooring contractors but we can't do it to you. Two rules??? At a big meeting here when the Government Dept. guy was asked about this he just shook his head and said he didn't know why that was the case. This guy wanted the asbestos removed from the site. His off sider said to cover it over with a ply or similar. He did not want it filling up this special land fill. Little bits spread around the country better than one big pile. He reckoned if the building caught on fire all the plastics, polystyrenes and other rubbish would kill you before it got to the asbestos under the new underlayment and flooring. Don't know what the latest is though. Definitely two ways of looking at it though

[mcurrin]

Asbestos, is not the big bugaboo everyone is led to believe. Google asbestos abatement and you'll get all the straight info. The reason contractors cannot do it while a homeowner can is that asbestos is something that you can have health problem with due to repeated exposure. A one time home owner abatement is very different than the contractor doing it day after day. Even then sanding the floor is not a good idea, but if it can be taken out without a lot of breakage (friable or free asbestos) then it just isn't a big deal. The fear of asbestos comes from not understanding the problem.

Mike

[rusty baker]

An organization, like a church, can remove their own asbestos, as long as the members do it for free.