kerabond/keralastic and yellow pine

[bspaugh]

hey , its me buggin' you all again, haha.

I am pricing a tile job going over plywood...

This crap is expensive. I have about 230 sq. ft. to cover using a 1/4x1/4 trowel. Reading the pdf file for the stuff from MAPEI it appears I am going to have to buy 150 lb and 6 gallons of additive. Now the Kerabond I can get for 19.34 per 50lb bag but the keralastic is 47.84 just for a 2 gallon jug and need a jug for every bag which covers 80 sq. ft. So I am looking just at 200 bucks for the mortar. Am I getting ripped off here or is this in line?

Now the only 3/4 BC ply I can find anywhere is made of southern yellow pine by georgia pacific and no ones sells it in fir or spruce. I have read to stay away from pine becuase its oily, but the kerabond/keralstic stuff says its ok as long as its group 1 with the PS 1-95 rating which this ply is. This stuff is costing 29.35 a sheet. WHEW! So is it ok in your opinions or not? MAPEI says yes but I want to know what people who have done this think.

So if I ditched the tile over plywood route because of the expense which I thought was going to be cheaper and went the CBU route using 1/2 ply and 1/4 fiberrock what stuff by MAPEI do you guys use under and over it? They got so many different mortars out there and everything sounds like it is compatible I don't know what to use. I just know I should be using unmodified under and modified latex over...so what's your preference?

Thanks dudes.

[jay f]

Although I've done it countless times before, I don't recommend tiling directly over plywood, the specs for a lasting installation are too exacting for most to install, especially with so many other options out there. As for options, ditra would be my first, followed be cbu, I don't like fiberrock.
As for price of the K/K, where are you finding that price, that's a great price! Locally the Keralastic goes for $30 a gallon! As for this being good enough, K/K is my absolute favorite, possibily the stickiest stuff on the planet. As I tell other pros, I believe that if I could get two trains to sit still long enough, I could stick them together with it.
If you do go with the cbu route, keraset under, Ultraset2 or3, possibly ultracontact on top.

[Curt Durand]

bspaugh, Mapei Ultraflex 1 works well and actually offers "normal" " good" bond over plywood. Keralstic is just the best. Probably overkill actually. It's just the stuff I used in my own home 30 years ago over a double plywood subfloor in the kitchen. Original tile and the new tile installed about 10 years ago over the original glazed tile is still down solid. Since then I have used Laticrete 253 Gold for my daughters 500 sf of ceramic over Durock. Seemed to work well.

[bspaugh]

Hey jay and Curt,

That price was from my local MENARDS, and it is special order. Lowes actually has it cheaper than that at 36.44 for the same 2 gallon jug. Hey, why don't you like fiberrock, I am curious.

2 Gal. Keralastic™ Premium Grade Flexible Mortar Latex Additive

You know Curt, I was reading about the k/k and it says for exterior use so I was wondering iabout it. I also saw that the ultraflex said it would bond to plywood but I know alot of stuff out there claims it but only people who've done it knows so its good to get experienced advice. thanks. I hope the tiling guys around here dont get mad at you for telling me this, haha!

[stullis]

About .70/ft for K/K and cheap thinset will run you about .20/ ft... are you sure you can afford to put in ceramic tile?

[Jerry Thomas]

USG's Fiberock should not to confused with being a CBU. It is a type of backerboard the TCNA classifies as a "Fiber-Reinforced Water-Resistant Gypsum Backer Board/Underlayment.

USG's Durock is a CBU (Cementitous Backer Unit). Both are backer boards but if you want a CBU type , use the Durock instead.

[bspaugh]

Originally Posted by stullis About .70/ft for K/K and cheap thinset will run you about .20/ ft... are you sure you can afford to put in ceramic tile?

I am not sure why you posted that and what are you trying to say? Yes I am a cheap ass if that is what you're trying to say. Anyways, the ceramic tile I am getting is at 250 bones and was not expecting the k/k to run 4/5 of that. I am doing the best I can with what I have...I was offended by your post but if you weren't meaning it in a degrading manner than I am sorry I over reacted and I will get over it regardless.

Thanks for the tip Jerry, didn't know that it was gypsum and nowhere in the brochure I picked up about it does it say what it is. I humbly don't know alot of things and learning.

[Bud Cline]

Are today's plywoods the same as the plywoods of yesteryear?

I wonder!

Personally I wouldn't do it.

[stullis]

I find it extremely hilarious that you are doing all this "studying" to do a great job while wanting to use the cheapest products on the market.

In other words I do feel you are being ridiculous so yes I was making it in a degrading manner.
But hey its your money that you are throwing out the window.

[Curt Durand]

bspaugh, Ignore stullis. Your questions are actually good ones and a few posts about this topic could be of interest to others. Look, thirty years ago, there were only a few ceramic installers who were trying out latex fortified thinset over plywood. Other installers told them that they were crazy and that it would never work. Well, it did and does if done properly. The Tile Council of America, TCA, added specifications for this type of install after lots of study and testing. The TCA specifications describe systems of installation that work. I've stuck special purpose tile to metal ship decking with Keralastic/Kerabond so I know this product will give you a wide safety margin. The additive in Keralastic is not simple latex. The stuff pours out like thick honey and is, in my opinion, the best setting material made that is available. Mapei's tech help has also shown itself to be the most knowledgeable and responsive over the past 30 years. K/K is probably overkill for most jobs but I do not like to take chances by using the minimum product. Ultraflex is the modern result of the latex modified start we had from the simple "Elmer's Glue-like" bulk latex additives of the 70's. Laticrete built it's business and reputation on this stuff. If the specs say it works over plywood, then it should work over plywood. The ANSI requirements are there for a reason. Why do I use Duroc with Laticrete? It's what I was taught to use and experience has made me comfortable with these products. If you wanted me to install over plywood, I would start with K/K and option downwards in price to the basic level Mapei/Laticrete type products that state they can go over plywood. You get what you pay for. Done correctly, all of the spec'd systems should work. TCA would not OK specifications for use over plywood subfloors if it was not a reliable system. Ceramic installers use what they are accustomed to and are leery of those product they are not familiar with. Simple as that. There is no one "best" system.

[stullis]

Like usual you guys don't want to hear the truth, just keep spinning the BS.

People buy .99/ft tile and then expect everything to be cheap and yet still expect stuff to be up to par with high quality products.
Who's living in the fantasy world that the DIY business has created?

Your additional plywood is going to cost you as much as your tile.
Backerboard is also going to run you the same or more then your plywood.

If you wanted cheap ceramic tile is not the way to go. SURPRISE!! ;

[TFP Admin]

Don't blame the consumer for thinking low cost of goods is a high priority and that high quality can still be low priced. There have been billions of dollars in advertising campaigns by manufacturers and retailers designed to convince the buying public of that. So called marketing geniuses get paid the big bucks to dream up misleading ads. Bean counters, CFOs and sales managers conspire to dupe the public by offering products at "reduced prices" of 10, 30 and 50% off by using poor quality materials, less service and support and outsourcing or paying below poverty wages to actually increase their profit margins. Smoke and mirrors.

Many of the consumers that come here for help have already been treated like shit. Please do not continue the trend.

T

[bspaugh]

Stullis I agree with you to a point but the TFP admin put it a hell of a lot more tactful.

But don't think I am being ridiculous because I am studying my options. I am looking to spend a REASONABLE amount to accomplish the task. I am also studying because I like to understand how things work and by understanding I can come up with a plan of what to use and what I can't skimp on. I believe making my floor the most rigid is one of my highest priorities. And yes that means I would spend the money for good ply. I also feel it is important to find the right mortar but I feel I don't need 500+ psi of shear strength and 200 psi will do my kitchen just fine; so no I don't want to spend 200 bucks just for the mortar when I think another option will work for less money that I believe won't fail. I believe I don't need to rip out my original 5/8 subfloorjust because it isn't 3/4" T&G the TCA calls for. But I would invest in the 3/4 which I already knew it would cost more than my tile if you read the first post. So I guess you can say I am picking and choosing but it will be an educated guess at the very least. The cheap-ass tile at least has a PEI rating of 4, doesn't that count for something too? I guess I could be even cheaper and buy tile for 50 cents a square foot and try to stick that on a floor. if I was so concerned about being so cheap I also could buy the cheap drywall screws to hold the floor down but I believe I will have to invest in the 20 dollar a box screws to make it last and so on .

If I wanted the cheapest tile job I would have just laid it over the lino and call it a day. Now let me ask this, would you invest/put the same kind of materials and flooring, doors, fixtures or whatever into a home that costs 300k vs. a home that costs a 100k? Hell no. You don't install granite countertops or solid oak panel doors into a low dollar house and expect a return on investment blah blah blah....so you're damn right I will buy cheap tile and it will work fine because I believe I will get it done and it will last because I will have a plan and understanding of the essentials, even if doesn't mean spending the max possible in materials.

Another thing is, if in another time when I am financially better off, I would fork it out for the K/k but right now I can't. It doesn't mean I am throwing my money away because I don't use it and choose an alternative. If I honestly believed I was wasting my money I wouldn't do it because I handle money very well considering I do own a home which I have been slowly remodeling the last 3 years, work for 14 bucks an hour and have put myself through an major university the last 8 years all while being current on the ridiculous child support I pay from a divorce.

I don't know why you feel the need to spread your piss around.

love,
Mr. Ridiculous from magic kingdom

[stullis]

Originally Posted by bspaugh Stullis I agree with you to a point but the TFP admin put it a hell of a lot more tactful.

If I didn't take this approach would you still be listening? Are you listening or are you continueing to believe the BS?

200 psi will do my kitchen just fine

Heck 50 psi will do the job, why spend the extra $$ on something that gives you 200?

I don't need to rip out my original 5/8 subfloorjust because it isn't 3/4" T&G the TCA calls for.

Gee is that the current recommendation from TCA. I wonder how they arrived at that conclusion? Wouldn't have anything to do with pressure from marketing and manufacturering would it?

The cheap-ass tile at least has a PEI rating of 4, doesn't that count for something

What does that mean? More marketing BS that has been foisted upon the "educated" consumer?

If I wanted the cheapest tile job I would have just laid it over the lino and call it a day

Why not do it that way? The thinset manufacturers say it is alrgiht to do.

Now let me ask this, would you invest/put the same kind of materials and flooring, doors, fixtures or whatever into a home that costs 300k vs. a home that costs a 100k? Hell no

That is PRECISELY what has been and continues to be done in the market. Especially with all these "Flip that House" type. Most remodel magazines list ROI for major renovations and none give you more than 100% ROI on the projects yet the flippers come in slap a coat of paint on and double their investment.
And we wonder why there is a downtrun in the housing market?

I don't know why you feel the need to spread your piss around.

All that college education cost you anything? Here you are getting a free education but are you learning?

DIYer's need a wake up call to the realities as outlined by TFP ADMIN

Don't blame the consumer for thinking low cost of goods is a high priority and that high quality can still be low priced. There have been billions of dollars in advertising campaigns by manufacturers and retailers designed to convince the buying public of that. So called marketing geniuses get paid the big bucks to dream up misleading ads. Bean counters, CFOs and sales managers conspire to dupe the public by offering products at "reduced prices" of 10, 30 and 50% off by using poor quality materials, less service and support and outsourcing or paying below poverty wages to actually increase their profit margins. Smoke and mirrors.

[/quote]


You come on here with your "quiz" for the pros based on information from other pros and forums looking for real answers??
OKAY... are you really Brian or are you some other "pro" poser who likes to fish for answers when they don't even understand the basics?
Hugh is it you again?

[Bud Cline]

bspaugh,

The cheap-ass tile at least has a PEI rating of 4, doesn't that count for something too?

The answer is "Not necessarily"!

PEI Rating (Porcelain Enamel Institute) is nothing more than a rating for the wear-surface of the tile, has nothing to do with quality of the bisque (body). Basically it counts for nothing within your approach and appraisal.

I can promise you there is a reason you can buy that tile at that price and the PEI has nothing to do with it. Don't let anybody tell you it does.