Need some feedback in ceramic install gone bad.

[Orlando]

Shoulda ,coulda ,woulda, didn't use it so lets get back to figuring this out. Its not a replacement cost issue, just want to make these people happy. Never had a CNBU failure in 28 years and dont believe this is a failure due to CBU. I personally feel that the OSB joints were to tight and there is mositure in the crawlspace causing the cracks. Was just picking your guys brains to see what you thought. I'll get out this week and take pics. Maybe we can all learn from this

[Jerry Thomas]

I learn something every time I turn on my computer.... including right now ......

http://huberwood.com/media/pdf/Advan...ationGuide.pdf

Scroll down and read the manufactures instructions listed under "Floor coverings". According the the people who make AdvanTech an underlayment is required for ceramic tile installations unless you go with a mud bed. News to me because I have doing this for years the same as you. The TCNA gives their approval, but the manufacturer's guidelines will always override that.

Going back to your thoughts on the AdvanTech being installed too tight. It would have to be on the butt joints because the tongue is longer than the groove to give an automatic spacing. AdvanTech does not swell like plywood or OSB either.

We are all trying to offer different insights and help one another. That's what it's all about partner

[Kman]

]T, that is a permission only page, but when I clicked on the link I entered, I went straight to it. I guess the website recognized my computer.

Basically, it's one of the senior members from Ontario Tile website that is having issue(s) with the grout cracking between the tiles around the perimeter of the room with a Ditra install. Don't know what the problem is, but obviously Ditra is not foolproof.

Stullis, I get Ditra for $1.35 plus tax, so around $1.48 a square, plus installation. The thinset underneath CBU or Ditra is the same, so that's a wash for me. I know the install is faster, so that helps some, but I can get CBU for about half the cost of Ditra so for me, even with the cheaper labor on Ditra, CBU is cheaper.

In some cases the extra cost wouldn't matter so much, but some customers want the price kept as low as possible, and using CBU instead of Ditra is one way to do it. If I can save them $100 on a kitchen install and still give the same guarantee, that's what they want.

I've started pushing the Ditra a little more, but if it makes the difference in getting the job or not, I'll go with the CBU.

I'll get out this week and take pics. Maybe we can all learn from this

Bring on the pics, Orlando. I'm all for learning from this. If it keeps one of us from having to go through the same thing, it's all been worth it.

[stullis]

Originally Posted by Jerry I learn something every time I turn on my computer.... including right now ...... http://huberwood.com/media/pdf/Advan...ationGuide.pdf Scroll down and read the manufactures instructions listed under "Floor coverings". According the the people who make AdvanTech an underlayment is required for ceramic tile installations unless you go with a mud bed. News to me because I have doing this for years the same as you. The TCNA gives their approval, but the manufacturer's guidelines will always override that. )

Jerry, CBU or Ditra is the underlayment.


Kman, what are you charging to install CBU? You are paying more for the ditra than I do but I have been charging $3 for install which includes materials and labor which is the same as I've been charging for CBU materials and labor on the floor. I do go through more thinset using ditra but I use non modified for sticking the tile to ditra which helps keep the cost down versus using a modified for sticking the tile to CBU.

Orlando, it could be moisture in the crawl space but check out live load concerns, refrigerator or other heavy weight loads that may have been applied at some point. Did they have any big parties where a lot of people gathered in the area? Granite countertops installed? Things of that nature. Look forward to seeing the pics.

Again the "fix" that I would take is remove the damaged tile reinstall with an anti-fracture membrane underneath and at least one soft joint although soft joints look like crap fter awhile.

[Kman]

Scott, your price shows how much difference there can be in labor costs from one area of the country to the other. I can't charge anywhere near what you're getting, or I'd be sitting on the couch twittling my thumbs all day. I'm not the cheapest but I'm not the most expensive, either.

Anyway, I've hijacked Orlando's thread long enough.

[redrock56]

with all due respect, the ditra would had made a difference. Reason being, it's the closest thing to a mudjob with a slip sheet between the substrate and tile, which effectively creates an uncoupling of the tile and osb. The tile can flex , compress and generally......move. The mere fact the cracks are perpendicular to the joists means the tile is under severe tensile stress (moisture, deflection, curvature of joists or osb?). The cracks will continue as such, perpendicular.

Orlando, you did the job too well. Everything is too tight. You, or rather the builder, have a problem with the under tile dynamics, but all is so well bonded and installed (for the predisposed problem, before you arrived), you can't even reach a sheer force to unbond your tile. From what I read, the T&G osb is even glued? Not sure, thought I may had read that. If we all do learn anything, it is ditra under highly unique situations as this, will work.

[redrock56]

I'm thinkin', short of tear out, jerry and stullis both have a decent fix. Notwithstanding keeping the customers patience, I may allow the floor to deteriorate as far as possible....maybe another six months? Or slap some laminated floor down next week?

[Orlando]

OK guys heres a update. Crawlspace is a unheated ventalated area with plastic under gravel. Joists had a 17- 19 percent moisture, OSB had less moisture but was protected with insulation. Supposeably it was not insulated from the beginning. There are support beams every 12 ft, OSB is 3/4 tounge and groove, glued and nailed to joists. This floor is solid. There is thin set under CBU, fastened with hot dipped galvenized roofing nails. CBU joints are tapped and staggered and offset from OSB joints. Cracks are directly over OSB joints.


I laid a piece of tape beside the cracks so you could see where they are

For some reason the floor has bowed and the tile cracked. Never saw anything like this before.

[Kman]

Has the wood floor bowed along that same line? And from the last picture, it looks as if it has bowed down where the crack is, is that correct? Are the joists running with the crack in the floor, or against it. With that long of a crack, I'm guessing it's running along the long end of the OSB.

[Orlando]

I would guess the OSB,CBU and tile all bowed together, Cant understand why the CBU didnt uncouple . Tapping on the tiles there are no hollow spots

[cproader]

Is there a load baring support under it at the crack...seems with the weight of the fridge on the right, and the load of the island on the left would suggest a sag on both sides....

[Jerry Thomas]

I believe CBU uncouples in a horizontal manner as opposed to vertical. I'm not aware of any product that is able to overcome a vertical movement situation that might rear its ugly head later on.

If the OSB was too tight it would presumably show up in the wood flooring too. You see any problems with their wood flooring? I am not an expert on the subject but I think they refer to that as panelization. Separations or gaps following the subfloor seams.

[Jerry Thomas]

Scott said:

Jerry, CBU or Ditra is the underlayment.

I agree, but I don't like the way the manufacturer has that worded. They belong to the APA and if you go by APA definitions tile backers are not underlayments per se'. How would a smart lawyer,a dumb judge, or Ray Darrah interpret that statement?
I am going to shoot them an email seeing if they will clarify that for us dumb installers

[Orlando]

There is another crack to the left of the on in there picture, its diectly under the chairs by the Island. There is a load bearing support beam approx 12 inches to the left of that crack then evey 12 ft another beam.Another bad thing is the distribitor that I got the Vitromex tile from no longer carries it. I need to find tile to fix this with once the prblem is remidied, unless its a complete tear out redo
I have seen no problems with wood flooring yet but it is alot more forgiving than ceramic.

[Peter Kodner]

I've been following this thread with interest. I do not inspect ceramic as there is way too much I don't know and with the developments over the last 10 years, my experience with ceramic is very dated.

I am very curious which way the joists are running: parallel or perpendicular to the cracks? If this was addressed, forgive my poor memory and/or reading abilities...