Radon Gas & Granite Countertops

[Peter Kodner]

Bud, i just got an email with on this from one of the e-publications I read. Is this the report you are referring to?

http://www.marble-institute.com/indu...-akron2008.pdf

[Bud Cline]

I think it is Bill Vincent that is waiting for someone that claims to have conclusive evidence about the dangers of granite countertops. The Marble Institute is on top of the matter but I haven't followed up on their website in a while.

As with a lot of "reports"...one can draw his own conclusions from that one. If one is a tree-hugger, then there is something there for him to draw from and be able to continue chanting: "The sky is falling, the sky is falling".

If one is a little more passive with fewer feelings of urgency and fewer panic attacks than others, then it is also easy to pass it off and poo-poo any concerns.

What about the old glow-in-the-dark wrist watches and the more contemporary "cell phones cause brain cancer"? Have those concerns been overcome by the existence of granite countertops that emit Radon?

Ole cynical me is still thinking this is more of a marketing concept (on the part of the non-granite people) than anything else.

Read the report and draw your own conclusions.

When those granite countertops start being used for night-lites because they glow in the dark then maybe I'll get a little more concerned.

[Peter Kodner]

Bud:

Bill, see my post before Bud's

[Bill Vincent]

Peter, here's the problem. Those who are ringing the alarm right now-- this isn't the first alarm they're ringing on natural stone. I mean, these people have a site set up for an organization called the "solid surface alliance". If you go to that site, there's not a SINGLE FRIGGIN WORD about solid surface. It's all about how they can sink natural stone:

solidsurfacealliance.org Blog » 2008 » July

Lets take a look at the "table of contents" for the website:


The Categories

* Does Low Level Radiation Really Cause Harm?
* Granite and Radon
* Granite Radiation
* Granite social and envirnomental issues
* Granite Toxic Heavy Metal Issues
* Recent Info on the testing effort
* Site Rules and info
* Uncategorized
* Welcome
* Who Is Attempting to Stop the Testing Effort?

The one that caught my attention was Granite SOCIAL issues??? I went to that page, and the very first thing you read is this:

Terrorism is Linked Again to the Natural Stone Industry

Now are we on Scare Tactics, or what???

Now, just to show you right where this yahoo is coming from, let me give you a quote, direct "from the horse's........ mouth", backed with the link for reference:

We are paying for the test, and putting out the effort.

We are a small group and have fewer resources to bring to the fray.

Life ain't fair, neither is love or war, why should a marketing effort be so?

Ethics........ > Forum > The Fabricator Network

The kicker is that's an ETHICS FORUM!!

[Bill Vincent]

Now, to get past Al and get to the problem itself.

Although I don't believe this is NEARLY as big, or as serious as Al makes it sound, there's got to be SOME minuscule morsel of truth there from which he could make his mountain. Unfortunately, because of how the SSA has turned this into an all or nothing war, and the MIA has responded to it in kind, it's tough to know for sure what's for real, and what isn't, which is why, when Al was supposedly going to come out with some kind of irrefutable evidence, I said it better be from somewhere like the CDC or the CPSC-- someone that has no stake in the outcome, and ISN'T BEING FUNDED by said organizations. Until I see something I can believe, I'll be all over it like a wet diaper.

[Bill Vincent]

In the interest of "fair play", I'm going to post the article Al was waiting to see published:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/ga...en&oref=slogin

[TFP Admin]

In the article, What’s Lurking in Your Countertop?, Kate Murphy wrote:

Excerpt from: Kate Murphy David J. Brenner, director of the Center for Radiological Research at Columbia University in New York, said the cancer risk from granite countertops, even those emitting radiation above background levels, is "on the order of one in a million." Being struck by lightning is more likely. Nonetheless, Dr. Brenner said, "It makes sense. If you can choose another counter that doesn't elevate your risk, however slightly, why wouldn't you?"

Reading further in the article, it seems there may be an opportunity for flooring (and home) inspectors. Getting certified to test granite and making the investment in the equipment may be a service that could be offered. If the alarmists succeed, they could make this kind of testing a lucrative addition to the inspector's repertoire.

T

[Bill Vincent]

Originally Posted by TFP Admin In the article, What’s Lurking in Your Countertop?, Kate Murphy wrote: Excerpt from: Kate Murphy David J. Brenner, director of the Center for Radiological Research at Columbia University in New York, said the cancer risk from granite countertops, even those emitting radiation above background levels, is "on the order of one in a million." Being struck by lightning is more likely. Nonetheless, Dr. Brenner said, "It makes sense. If you can choose another counter that doesn't elevate your risk, however slightly, why wouldn't you?" Reading further in the article, it seems there may be an opportunity for flooring (and home) inspectors. Getting certified to test granite and making the investment in the equipment may be a service that could be offered. If the alarmists succeed, they could make this kind of testing a lucrative addition to the inspector's repertoire. T

The problem is that rather than take the chances, many are going to, for no other reason other than hearing "radioactive" and "radon", say screw natural stone (NOTE I didn't say granite-- there's already atleast one person worried about their soapstone over at Gardenweb as a result of this garbage) in lieu for solid surface countertops, and all because of a miniscule fraction of the granite out there. If he'd been honest about it, and instead of parading around, as he has, complete with the forum name Hotgranitekills, making it sound like granite must be eradicated from our lives, I might've paid him a little more attention, and even supported him. But as I've said in a couple of threads already, he couuld tell me the sky's blue, and I'd look outside to verify it first, before I'd believe it.

Matter of fact, because of this, lawyers are already lining up, chomping at the bit to go after stone shops that have installed granite in any house with higher than normal radon readings, whether the granite's at fault or not, so in addition to more people turning to solid surface, there will be MANY stone shops that go out of business now, because they don't want to take the chance on being sued. Many more will go out because the insurance premiums are very shortly going to go through the roof for the same reason. This has the potential of cutting the granite industry atleast in half. All because of this yahoo shooting off his mouth.

[Bud Cline]

Annually for the past couple of decades my family and I have traveled to Estes Park Colorado each October. Travelling westward on U.S. Highway 36 from Longmont Colorado you enter the Big Thompson Canyon. It's about a twenty-five minute drive through some beautiful solid granite mountains towering hundreds of feet above the highway. The granite canyon walls are in close proximity to the vehicles on the road. I guess you could say you are surrounded by granite.

There are many such areas in the country and in the world that offer the same conditions. I wonder now if maybe we should begin to lobby the automakers to install geiger counters in all vehicles. Or better yet begin a movement to stop all tourist travel through granite canyons and crevasses.

Yow I know I know - sarcastic bastard!

[TFP Admin]

Has anyone done any kind of survey or research into health conditions of those people living in proximity of the granite that is s'posed to be the "hottest?" Be interesting to know some statistics.

T

[Bill Vincent]

Good question. One I'm wondering if it has an unbiased answer. I know Al has all kinds of "facts" and "figures", but they're all bought and paid for, so far as I've seen.

This article today is the very first information I've seen on this that has no bias one way or the other.

[Bill Vincent]

Originally Posted by Bill_Vincent lawyers are already lining up, chomping at the bit to go after stone shops that have installed granite in any house with higher than normal radon readings, whether the granite's at fault or not, so in addition to more people turning to solid surface, there will be MANY stone shops that go out of business now, because they don't want to take the chance on being sued. Many more will go out because the insurance premiums are very shortly going to go through the roof for the same reason. This has the potential of cutting the granite industry atleast in half. All because of this yahoo shooting off his mouth.

I won't say I tolja so.

Plaintiffs Lawyers Have New Target: Radon-Emitting Granite Countertops | ABA Journal - Law News Now

Never was there a time where I wish I were more wrong.

[Huligar]

When marketing a product, one expects a bit of hype. The idea is to show that the product is the best over the competitor's line of product. That is the trade of advertisers and the history of marketing. Some tactics used to sell can be humorous or as serious as the competition between manufacturers. Marketing tactics that play on fears of the general public can be a very powerful tool.

In the present day, there's a very popular angle of "green." This is prevalent everywhere in the media. So what happens when you mix a scare tactic under the guise of environmental concern?

Buildclean found the answer to that question. The premise seems of the nonprofit organization seems to be admirable but the fact that the "awareness campaign" that Buildclean is currently using seems to be curiously slanted. In fact, the target seems to be the natural stone industry.
When Sara Selber of BuildClean was asked how she got involved in natural stone and radon, she explained how she was approached by the owner of C&C North America, a company that produces two products – granite and a quartz product called Silestone®™.
"C&C North America then recruited a quartz company called Cambria, after they learned quartz was an issue, she further explained that the two companies hired her to test quartz, granite and other surfaces for radon emission. Both companies are testing their products through BuildClean, and they contracted two labs – one in New York and one in Israel.

We have looked all over the C&C website but cannot find any mention of natural stone.

When ask what granites emit radon, Sara Selber said; "Not all granites emit radon or radiation. There are some that clearly do. There are some that absolutely don't. We don't know," she said.

They're being set up as a non-profit, and they're funded with two large donations.
The first is $250,000 from the makers of 'Silestone.' They manufacture quartz countertops, which is a direct competitor to granite. Silestone finance records show that they started out in April of 1998 with a an initial investment of $410K, made there first million in 1998, sales in 2002 was over $70M, and sales in 2006 was well over $260M. it is not hard to see that they have the money to invest $250,000 in a new advertising campaign.

BuildClean is also getting money from Cambria, another quartz manufacturer.
In fact, Cambria's marketing director is on BuildClean's board of directors.

When asked about the funding Sara responds: I don't believe the issue is who our founders are. And I'm not going to have that debate." That answer seems to be clear enough.

In a recent interview Mrs. Selber mentions teaming up with Al Gerhart who has some interest in the granite \radon scare.

Al Gerhart is a carpenter whohappens to own a website called the SolidSurfaceAlliance.org. He educated himself, regarding materials he works with that may expose him to harmful elements."

Upon further review it seems this "personality" is well known for his view of natural stone. All one has to do is look at the website to get the gist of his viewpoint. Coincidentally, there also seems to be a new business venture for Solid Surface Alliance as the website now sells Geiger counters to detect radiation…

His debates have earned him quite a place online in forums discussing the subject.

After a certain debate on a well known residential forum, a renowned geoscientist in the industry concluded:
"Al attempts to hijack debates by choking the system with verbal diarrhea. The problem appears to be that he has a bit of knowledge about some things but not enough sense and understanding of the subjects. In that debate on the Garden Forum he threw in so many fabrications (plain made up lies) that his credibility just plummeted to zero.

Anyone who operates this way (by including a number of facts to gain an element of credibility in the eyes of a generally uninformed audience, twisting facts deliberately or because of his lack of understanding, and then throwing in a number of lies) does not deserve extended airtime. Many years ago when doing science psychology I still remember my professor giving the advice to his students that you should never engage a nutter in debate. You can never win an argument with such people. I recognized this early in the forum and that is why I would not engage him in "debate".

One of his major problems is that he does not know what the numbers mean and how they are derived."

In response to the buildclean tactics, The Marble Institute of America is in the process of doing their own independent study:

"The Marble Institute of America (MIA) is grateful for the preliminary response from the members to the newly established Truth About Granite Fund. Based on this positive response, it's clear that their colleagues share their commitment to protect consumers from needless fear mongering by establishing standards for the testing of granite so consumers can safely and comfortably enjoy the beauty, durability and practicality of this natural stone."

When we asked the MIA why Sara Speer Selber consider The Truth About Granite Fund as a draconian move that is being waged against BuildClean(TM), they simple responded:

"The Truth About Granite Fund was established to help raise funds to develop unbiased, scientific standards for the granite industry, including the testing of granite for radon. No such standards currently exist in the natural stone industry. Previous tests of granite samples have found they are safe. However, the Truth in Granite Fund aims to take advantage of new, advanced scientific instruments that make testing both more practical and more accurate. Our goal is to make sure testing follows consistent protocols, so that future studies are meaningful and based on consistent, approved science – not isolated methodologies or unapproved instruments. Ultimately, our goal is to make sure the granite we sell is safe."

This latest sales tactic received the attention of an independent group called the Natural Stone Restoration Alliance (NSRA). The NSRA saw Radon testing as an added service that their members could provide to the homeowners along with all their other services for natural stone. I am one of the lead testers and trainer for the NSRA , invited times Members of the SolidSurfaceAlliance.org to discuss and provide proof of this threat to the home owners.

The SolidSurfaceAlliance.org agreed to provide an alleged radiation producing granite sample that they claim to have in their possession to do independent testing. After an initial agreement between the two groups it seems the Solid Surface Alliance has reneged on the delivery of the alleged material. I was disappointed of the outcome. The NSRA than requested the name of the company that Mr. Gerhart claimed to just have rejected over 10k worth of radon producing granite. When the information was not provided, I ask if he could purchase the next slab that Mr. Gerhart rejected. But for some reason Mr. Gerhart could no longer find a sample for testing. Mr. Huligar went on to say: "All we care about at this point. As for whether are not Stone adds a measurable amount of "radon" in a home, Mr. Gerhart had agreed to come to NY and pick out a hot slab that I would place in my own home after testing my home for radon. Once the granite was installed I would test my home again as described by the EPA and have it tested by someone approved by the EPA. Not only would we do the short and long term test, we would also video tape the whole event, the selection, the creation, the install, and than setting up cameras for anyone to view the stone and meters on the net. I was looking forward to do this, but at this time it appears that Mr. Gerhart has no plans on doing as he said which is a big disappointment."

The NSRA plans to push for this simple test, they feel that the consumers only care about one thing; "whether or not adding granite in your home would significantly change the radon levels in a home". At present, the most prudent consumer should watch the outcome of this debate and make an informed decision, not taken in by a scare tactic by advertisers.

EPA Confirms That Granite Countertops Pose No Significant Health Risk

[Bill Vincent]

Hey Huligar-- Thanks for that, and welcome to the forum!!

This is [an excerpt] from Huligar's link above:

EPA Confirms That Granite Countertops Pose No Significant Health Risk New U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) statements reaffirm that granite countertops pose no significant health risk, discounting recent alarmist reports about the safety of granite countertops, said the Marble Institute of America, the nation's leading natural stone association. The EPA issued its new statements late Friday, following media reports citing junk science and inconsistent testing results that created public concern about granite countertops as a source of radon gas.

Read the rest of the article here: EPA Confirms That Granite Countertops Pose No Significant Health Risk | Story

[stullis]

Might find some info here.

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