Discussion: Tile Over Vinyl Flooring, by Bud Cline

[TFP Admin]

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This is a thread for discussion of the article, CERAMIC & STONE TILE OVER VINYL FLOORING, by Bud Cline. Your comments and questions are welcome. You may also rate the article. Thank you for your participation.

[Jerry Thomas]

Very good article Bud and one that I totally agree with.

Maybe there should be a warning inserted somewhere to check for Asbestos on older homes.

How do you go about rating it MR. Admin?

[TFP Admin]

There is a ratings drop-down at the top of the thread.

I thought I would be able to get this finished before anyone replied or noticed anything was missing. Disclaimer is coming. It's almost 4:30am and I am not finished yet. Good to hear you liked the article though.

[Bud Cline]

Thank you Jerry
...and you are correct about the need for some asbestos abatement information and it is in the works.

[Jerry Thomas]

Bud I have complete confidence in your common sense approach to stuff.

Thank you for taking your time to do that.

[TFP Admin]

I see I didn't have permissions properly set for members to rate threads that allow it. I fixed that. Sorry.

[Peter Kodner]

Bud, excellent work! The only item I am curious about is the date for the removal of asbestos in the products. Again, as I frequently state, my memeory isn't the greatest, but I recall it was a little later in the 80s where asbestos could no longer be used in manufacture, but existing stocks could be sold for a few years after. I think you may find materials iunstalled into the 90s that contained the dreaded "A" word.

When Tarkett bought the GAF floor division, they shut the VCT plant (Whitehall), cleaned it up and produced only non- asbestos materials from day one. The was somewhere around 82-83. Circle A has always been very cagey about answering when they completely stopped using asbestos (obviously wiith the number of plants that had at the time, they did not all stop at the same time). I can tell you from testing I have had done on commercial sites, often VAT (remember that old acronym!) came back under 1% (considered non-asbestos product) but the cutback would be in the 24-28% range (there are actually two types of testing that is done, depepnding on what the product is. Flooring is examined differently than adhesives). I used to love the reports (kidding about the love here) with all the pretty microphotographs of the different kinds of asbestos fibers. Asbestos was originally used because it was found to be a great "binder" in emulsions and cutbacks, and retarded the seperation of the components.

Sheet vinyl backings are another area of concern for asbestos. I wish I still had a copy of circle A's recommended practice for removal of asbestost containing flooring. They advocated use of a "wetting" agent, basically dishwashing detergent (not dishwasher detergent) mixed with water and applied with a spray bottle. I think they also suggested removing the face with the backing intact. Necessitates cutting it into smaller strips and is best done as a two person operation.

A word should be added on disposal. Any asbesots containeing materials must be palced in a certain thickness palstic bag (don't remember the gauge), clearly labeled as "asebstos containing" (I think yellow labels must be used) and sent only to a lanfill approved for asbatos disposal. A serious Federal law violation not to follow this. EPA and OSHA give absolutley no leeway in this.

Can't end this comment without a job story. In 1980 or 1981 my company was awarded the contract to replace the floor tile in the corridors of Fairchild Hall at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs (this is the only academic building on the campus- I think job was about 150,00 feet). We showed up the first day of work and a section of one corridor (several hundred square feet) was blocked off from floor to ceiling with visqueen. We were instructed to go into the arew and remove the tile by whatever means we would be doing the rest of the project. After the take up, we were instructed to leave the site. Next day, the visqueen was gone and we were told to proceed. We were never givien the results of the testing, and in fact, it was never acknowledged they were testing for asbsestos being released, it was pretty obvious what was happening. Even 25 years ago, they were investing well over a million dollars training pilots and sure didn't want to expose them to asbesots. Also tells you stripping machine and hand scrapers, inn the real world, do not release fibers into when removing VAT.

If everyone on the board is nice, I'll post the story about how our contract tripled in value with the change orders for the subfloor prep. I kept a chunk of the existing underlayment on my desk for years becuase nobody had ever seen anything like it before.

[hookknife]

I also like youre approach to the article, Its obviously not youre first rodeo
Thanks for the info Bud, I look forward to more tile stuff!!!!

[Bud Cline]

This is why I hate conversations on this topic. The government is involved at several levels and when that occurs there is plenty of confusion.

For example you said "The EPA and OSHA give no leeway" when referring to disposal techniques but in fact some states allow a homeowner to remove their own flooring containing asbestos and throw it in their trash can and forget about it.

I think the issues of residential and commercial removal and handling are very different in most states. Even though plenty of federal law exists, some states must be taking it upon themselves to override federal regulations in some cases.

In this state not only is all the special handling involved but the landfill must be notified prior to delivery and they have to agree to receive the contaminate, not only that but the asbestos is mapped at the landfill and a record of its source and current disposal location is kept in perpetuity so that should this product ever have to be handled again in the future the original owner disposing of the product could (in theory) be held liable for expenses of any additional handling. (If they can be located.)

Then there is the question of asbestos-containing-products being friable and/or non-friable at the time of removal and the asbestos content must be higher than 1% for the friability rules to apply. GOOD GOD!

So in my offering I was concerned only with residential-type work being performed by Do-It-Yourselfers. Some of them go nuts at the thought of having asbestos anywhere within 1000 miles of themselves when in fact asbestos is everywhere and is still legally being used in some manufacturing from what I have heard.

Other people see the asbestos issues as an explosive device that has a lawyer for the fusing mechanism. Don't get me wrong, I don't make light of the dangers of asbestos while at the same time we aren't talking about the handling of raw plutonium here and asbestos containing floorcoverings (for God's Sake) can be handled and handled safely.

As far as WHEN? There doesn't seem to be a clear answer on how much asbestos containing product was in the marketplace (yet to be sold) when the new laws became effective, and no one seems to know how long it took to deplete those supplies through the normal marketplace. One of the many questions about this banging-around in my mind is if this product was deemed to be this dangerous why weren't the unsold quantities of new product buried at that time? Why were they allowed to continue to be distributed throughout the country until the supplies ran out? Why? Commerce that's why, politics, that's why, profits, that's why.

[Peter Kodner]

You are right on Bud! I probably should not have mentioned EPA and OSHA in the same post. Different functions. I have had one issue where an OSHA inspector got EPA involved. A Federal facility, my mechanic was told by the facility director the exisitng tile did not contain asbestos and he began a take up. OSHA came in, said the test must be produced to document non-asbestos. Turns out is was never tested and we paid a fine. Only about 60 sq ft but a substantial fine. It was cut to about a third of the original amount after a[ppeal and review, but still a cost not factored into the job. Needless to say, my salesperson, project manager and installer had a sit down with me. Also inserted a new page into the employee manual to cover this circumstance.

Reminds me of the old story: What are the three biggest lies in the world? 1. You check is in the mail. 2. I gave at the office. 3. I'm from the government and I'm here to help you...

[Bud Cline]

If I had to venture a guess I would guess that most homeowners have no idea that their floorcoverings could contain asbestos. I base this on some of the reactions I have seen over the years on these DIY forums when some alarmist installer comes along and tells an unsuspecting homeowner that their floor contains asbestos and they should not remove it.

Of course this goes against everything I preach about removing vinyl flooring before converting to a ceramic tile floor. I'm kind of damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I'm glad the information is there somewhere so that the DIY'er can seek out the information and make an informed decision on what they should do based on their own conscientious and level of concern.

In that same respect maybe a person should also know that for years many products in the home have contained asbestos and are never mentioned. For example, some heaters and furnaces at one time had heat-shields made of asbestos and these asbestos fibers may have had the ability (once dislodged) to be distributed throughout their home via the air ducts. Ceiling tiles popular in remodeling contained asbestos fibers. Some of the old home siding contained asbestos. Years ago I worked for the local water company one summer installing underground water mains made of what was known then as Transite, a cement product containing asbestos. I would bet these water mains are still in use today. Roofing shingles contained asbestos at one time, pipe wrap used on heating systems, sprayed acoustical ceiling material contained asbestos and our older school buildings throughout this country have been fighting to abate this stuff for decades. Public office buildings, airports,.................the list goes on.

A few years ago an installer friend of mine was preparing to remove some floor tile in a manufacturing plant. Nothing had been removed as yet. OSHA walked through and noticed he and his workers were not wearing hardhats and safety glasses, the pending tile adhesive was stacked in buckets nearby and when he was asked for the MSDS sheets for the products he had none. They were assembling and they each had a cup of coffee in their hands. He was questioned as to what his tasks were and when he said he was removing floor tile they wanted to see his asbestos testing reports of which he also had none. This is a contract installer working at the pleasure of a flooring retailer. The fine was originally ten thousand dollars for all of those infractions by was later appealed down to fifteen hundred which he had to pay on his own without any assistance from the retailer. Just where does the responsibility lie in these matters? There is no clear pointing of the finger in these matters so I try to stay away from these bullfights.

Now, shall we discuss paint containing lead, tobacco, fertilizer, bug spray, radon, how about luminated watch dials?

[Lo Down]

Bud Cline said Now, shall we discuss paint containing lead, tobacco, fertilizer, bug spray, radon, how about luminated watch dials?

For goodness sake don't even think of bringing up mercury and tooth fillings! Were all gone a die I tell ya!
... wait a minute................ how come with all these hazards, people are living longer than ever?

[lakebuilder]

Great article Bud. I often wonder what it is I'm actually scraping up when I deal with removing old flooring from the 50's or 60's. Probably nothing as I'm still in good shape.

""""Reminds me of the old story: What are the three biggest lies in the world? 1. You check is in the mail. 2. I gave at the office. 3. I'm from the government and I'm here to help you...""""

Peter: Had to laugh at that one. Those may be the biggest lies in the world, but here are 2 of the biggest lies in Montana: One being that 'sure that trucks paid for' and the other being 'honest, I was only helping that sheep through the gate'.

[Bill Vincent]

Don't forget "I promise I won't...." er..... um....

nevermind.

[Bud Cline]

LMAO

Bill I know what you're thinking and that one was the first one I missed when lakebuilder made that post. I was just going to leave it alone.

lakebuilder: "Reminds me of the old story: What are the three biggest lies in the world? 1. You check is in the mail. 2. I gave at the office. 3. I'm from the government and I'm here to help you..."

There must be 4 biggest lies!