Choosing carpet cushion

[rgfloor]

I have seen a lot of crappy cushion lately, so I thought we might talk about cushion.

Saw a berber today over 1/2 inch 4 1/2 pound rebond.
Last week the complaint was cushion variation. Supposed to be 7/16, but it went from 5/16 to 3/4 in spots. Cheap bonded, no net on top just a thin black plastic.

What have you been seeing and what are your standards for selecting cushion?

[Floorguy]

I have to take what my main distributor has. Leggett & Pratt. It is way better then what the others have. Carpenter use to be king, but quality started lacking and no one is carrying it around here anymore, even though it is made 95 miles up the hwy, in Waco.

[mcurrin]

A little further south Perry, Temple TX. Home of Wilsonart and Carpenter pad, I think.

Mike

[Floorguy]

Ya, that's it. I knew I had passed it many times on the way to Dallas.

[Daniel Wachtel]

We have been using Carpenter. It is pretty uniform.

[Jim McClain]

Originally Posted by rgfloor I have seen a lot of crappy cushion lately, so I thought we might talk about cushion. Saw a berber today over 1/2 inch 4 1/2 pound rebond. Last week the complaint was cushion variation. Supposed to be 7/16, but it went from 5/16 to 3/4 in spots. Cheap bonded, no net on top just a thin black plastic. What have you been seeing and what are your standards for selecting cushion?

Hi Roger,

That berber cushion is a failure waiting to happen -- if it hasn't already (were you there inspecting a problem?). Berbers, almost without exception, require a thinner, denser cushion than standard cut pile residential carpets. The reason being the nature of the backing construction.

The cable yarns most berbers are made with cause the space between the primary and secondary backings to be greater and the voids between and around the yarn is taken up by latex. Latex, with its makeup including calcium carbonate - marble dust - can be a very brittle material when dry. Too much flexing of the material can cause delamination of the backings and other problems. A too thick cushion, and especially one that is also too soft, can cause premature failure of the carpet.

One of the most popular types of cushion I used was a bonded prime urethane - "rebond pad". It came in many different thicknesses and densities. My standard was ⅜" 8# rebond, which provided the comfort and feel my customers wanted without causing problems. In some cases, anything thicker or softer might have voided the warranty on the carpet. For the standard cut pile residential carpet, I could go up to 7/16" thick with a 7 or 8# density as a standard cushion.

For me, the in stock standard cushion was a starting point. I never allowed the cushion quality for the particular carpet be reduced (never sell too thick or too soft for the material). There was only a better cushion available. Sometimes that was a slab or waffle rubber cushion with a very high density rating, sometimes a fiber pad, most often used in commercial applications.

I think it's important to take the carpet manufacturer's recommendations into account and use that as a starting point. Customers many times have more faith in the printed literature from a manufacturer. Of course, you and I know that isn't always golden advice, but it can be a starting point and a well trained and knowledgeable sales person can work with the customer to find a cushion that meets their needs (which doesn't always equate to their wants). Unfortunately, some of the major carpet manufacturers are no longer printing recommendations for either the dealer or consumer, so it's even more important for the sales person to understand the properties of cushion and the characteristics of the different qualities.

Thanks for bringing this topic up. I hope to hear from other carpet pros, including those in sales and manufacturing, to help us learn more and get a better understanding of carpet cushion.

R'gards,

Jim

[kwfloors]

Originally Posted by Floorguy I have to take what my main distributor has. Leggett & Pratt. It is way better then what the others have. Carpenter use to be king, but quality started lacking and no one is carrying it around here anymore, even though it is made 95 miles up the hwy, in Waco.

We used a fiber felt pad for 12yrs named diplomat in a 50 oz. Best pad we ever had. 9 lb. rated and low r rating for over radiant floors. Leggett&Pratt bought out the company and shut it down. Now we use mostly urethane 3/8, nice pad. Been awhile since using 8lb rebond, just doesn't feel right compared to the old diplomat or the urethane under berber.

[Nick Arrera]

i use a 80 oz solid rubber pad called Berber Mate for Berbers , and wovens .. 7/16 8 lb , or 1/2 10 lb rebound for other cpts ..

[DJ]

we're using a no name pad rebond (kinda crappy)for these tract houses can't complain all materials on jobsite saves fuel i just take the econo ride to work other jobs we're using legget &platt and a few prosource rolls ...dj

[Peter Kodner]

Boy the mention of Diplomat brings back old memories. We used to stock several weights of General Felt (GFI) Diplomat, 40 and 50 ounce in hair/jute in the 60s and 70s. Nothing like unloading a truck load in the middle of the summer by hand! You smelled really funky for the rest of the day and itched like crazy (I'd love to be young and dumb and smelling like hair/jute pad again ).

I thought Foamex had bought GFI and they were still making felted pads? Sometime in the 80s we switched over to Hartex and Syntex and found both to perform well.

[Nick Arrera]

Remember that stuff all to well .. only thing i liked about was it covered 12 ' at a time .. Sears had a black pad with a mesh , can't remember the name but that was some tough stuff , and heavy ..

[Peter Kodner]

Doing mostly commercial in down town Chicago, it was 6' rolls for us.

[Nick Arrera]

never had 6 ' rolls here .. 80 oz berbermate comes in 15 yd rolls here , when i went to col to do my brothers house it only came in ten yd rolls .. they said the installers complained they were to heavy ..

[kwfloors]

Originally Posted by Peter Kodner Boy the mention of Diplomat brings back old memories. We used to stock several weights of General Felt (GFI) Diplomat, 40 and 50 ounce in hair/jute in the 60s and 70s. Nothing like unloading a truck load in the middle of the summer by hand! You smelled really funky for the rest of the day and itched like crazy (I'd love to be young and dumb and smelling like hair/jute pad again ). I thought Foamex had bought GFI and they were still making felted pads? Sometime in the 80s we switched over to Hartex and Syntex and found both to perform well.

No leggett&pratt did buy GFI. I remember too the diplomat hair/jute days. Then they changed it to synthetic and it held up alot better. We would get it in 12' and make our cuts with the carpet. Sure cut down on staples. Love the spikes that would poke you sometimes in that pad, 1inch long or so with some jags on it. I never saw how it was made to find out what those had to do with the making of it. Leggett has another version of the Diplomat but isn't as good, less density and not much of a surface on it. Now we use Heathier Choice urethane as our competitor has the market locked up on Daltonian urethane. It is in 30 yd rolls, one man rolls to handle instead of 2 man rolls on the Daltonian. Another memory is the 105 oz. waffle, talk about heavy.

[Nick Arrera]

From what i was told Kw , that pad was made from scraps , and the staples was actually bailing wire ..
That 105 oz. waffle wasn't black was it ?