How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?

[Dobby Tappet]

We think we will listen to Dobby ...

OK, that's scary... Listening is fine, but don't ever believe something just because someone said it. We all still need to check and confirm what we are hearing is factual.

Speaking of encyclopedia's, the Encyclopedia of Textiles; by the editors of American Fabrics Magazine, published by Prentice-Hall, is a monster of a book with well over 600 pages that also has just over 80 pages of Textile Terms.

Mine is a second printing of a second edition, c. 1973. This date is well before the introduction of berber in our current vernacular. In the section of terms, berber is described as follows:

BERBER: Is a lightweight, satin-faced fabric, made of all silk or of cotton back and silk face; it came into prominence at the turn of the century when the famous English general, Gordon of Khartoum, defeated the Berber tribes in his campaign in North Africa.

Well that clears it up pretty well NOT!!!

An interesting side note, having scoured through countless texts on rugs, carpets, cloth weaving and carpet manufacture, dating back as far as the late 1800's, no reference to Berber anything can be found before the 1970's. Even then, everything found is completely contrary to what we, in todays American carpet industry refer to as a berber carpet.

Begging the question 'How did "Berber Carpet" become such a popular part of the modern carpet vernacular? It seems every carpet customer knows the term 'berber' yet even here, in a forum of carpet professionals we can not find agreement on what exactly a berber carpet is!

What are your thoughts?

Respectfully,

Dobby

PS: The adventures of general Gordon of Khartoum are an interesting read although, from the transcripts I have read, which contain much interaction with Berber's, I have yet to find a connection between the good general and specific weaving styles of any kind. And the mystery grows...

[getoverit]

Dobby Tappet said OK, that's scary... Listening is fine, but don't ever believe something just because someone said it. We all still need to check and confirm what we are hearing is factual. Speaking of encyclopedia's, the Encyclopedia of Textiles; by the editors of American Fabrics Magazine, published by Prentice-Hall, is a monster of a book with well over 600 pages that also has just over 80 pages of Textile Terms. Mine is a second printing of a second edition, c. 1973. This date is well before the introduction of berber in our current vernacular. In the section of terms, berber is described as follows: BERBER: Is a lightweight, satin-faced fabric, made of all silk or of cotton back and silk face; it came into prominence at the turn of the century when the famous English general, Gordon of Khartoum, defeated the Berber tribes in his campaign in North Africa. Well that clears it up pretty well NOT!!! An interesting side note, having scoured through countless texts on rugs, carpets, cloth weaving and carpet manufacture, dating back as far as the late 1800's, no reference to Berber anything can be found before the 1970's. Even then, everything found is completely contrary to what we, in todays American carpet industry refer to as a berber carpet. Begging the question 'How did "Berber Carpet" become such a popular part of the modern carpet vernacular? It seems every carpet customer knows the term 'berber' yet even here, in a forum of carpet professionals we can not find agreement on what exactly a berber carpet is! What are your thoughts? Respectfully, Dobby PS: The adventures of general Gordon of Khartoum are an interesting read although, from the transcripts I have read, which contain much interaction with Berber's, I have yet to find a connection between the good general and specific weaving styles of any kind. And the mystery grows...

So Dobby??? Are you saying you don't know the answer either? Berber seems to have become a generic term just like xerox did and a few other terms in the english language have.

[Robert Akin]

Dobby,

A 600 page book Does it a least have a few pics


Rob

[getoverit]

mcbrides said We think we will listen to Dobby ....

Like there was ever any doubt about that!!

[Dobby Tappet]

So Dobby??? Are you saying you don't know the answer either?

Yes, I'm saying I do not have a clue what berber carpet is. I mean, I know what a Berber rug is, be it flat woven or hand knotted. But, even when a customer comes into the showroom and mentions a 'berber' carpet, I have to ask for more information to ensure we are sharing a similar mental picture.

In all honesty, I tend to agree with Rusty on the origins of the term being one based from marketing and not factual information.

I know that there are many who seek to imply berber is a natural color flecked yarn, but here too, the documentation to support the idea simply does not exist. In fact, there is even less documentation to support the yarn theory than the large looped structure theory.

The Dictionary of Design and Decoration, published by Viking, with well over 500 pages does not even have a reference to berber anything anywhere in it's contents. Nor does the Weaving, Spinning and Dying book, revised & expanded, which, by the way, is the bible of hand spinners.

The thing is, we all seem to have our own ideas and opinions about what berber carpet is and how it came to be, but in all honesty, I think it is nothing more than a real word that was misapplied, either intentionally or unintentionally and for some reason, the term has stuck even though no one really knows for certain what it actually is. Does any of this even make sense?

Respectfully,

Dobby

Anyhoo, as an aside, the Encyclopedia of Textiles has lots and lots of really cool pictures!

[rusty baker]

Dobby, maybe you can give me an answer on something. An old-time retailer once told me that what we generally call berber, a large-looped commercial, was originally intended for direct glue commercial applications only. He said, residential use was a decorators idea. Do you know if there is any truth to that?

[rgfloor]

Roland Thompson said I do wish I had the talent of writting like some of you people do. Mine comes best from face to face. Roland

But, but, but, when face to face Roland does all the talking!!!

[FlooringGirl]

Since I was the one who the "dirt & dung" comment came from, I'd better stick in my 2 cents. I heard this in a seminar at Surfaces about ten years ago and it sounded so believable that (obviously), I believed it! They said there was a man who worked in the carpet production industry who went on vacation in Africa, saw these rugs by this particular tribe, came back to the US and asked to have them reproduced on a large scale.

It's true, now the term is used in such a way that "berber carpet" usually means looped carpet to a customer. California berber seems to be what they call it when they want a frieze with a speck. How is is we cannot figure out where this term really came from??

Tia

[UncleCliffie]

I was told years ago, that the term berber was first used to describe color, rather than texture. A "Berber" carpet must have 7 distinct colorations woven into the yarn. I don't remember where I heard it or from whom, but I was around when the product first found it way to the midwest from the west coast decorators back in the 1970's. I don't know if that was an old wives tale, or not, but it has stuck in my mind for many years.
Dick Johnson
Trying to get it right since 1964

[Floorguy]

I watched something on the history channel, and they enforced the dung and dirt story, showing video of production and how the dung and grass were still in the weave.
Because of that and being shown, I believe it was how they showed it to be. They didn't just talk about it, they had pictures/video/movie, showing and documenting it.

[DJ]

[Dobby Tappet]

Here is a modern description:

Taken from the popular book Floor Magic by Alan Berman, Pantheon Books, c. 1997; p.110

"Berber carpet is not, as is commonly assumed, the name of a construction method, but refers to the overall natural flecked appearance of the pile created by a mixture of dyed and undyed wools, usually beige or oatmeal in color. Berber carpets can be woven or tufted."

Respectfully,

Dobby

[Peter Kodner]

Her eis the definition in Kosa:

"Originally, wool carpets in tribal motifs woven by North African tribesmen. Today, the tern is used to describe manufactured carpet with a pebbly, homespun appearance. It is made from natural-colored (but sometimes dyed) wools."

Here is the definition in Kosa:

"Originally, wool carpets in tribal motifs woven by North African tribesmen. Today, the tern is used to describe manufactured carpet with a pebbly, homespun appearance. It is made from natural-colored (but sometimes dyed) wools."

[Daris Mulkin]

I found this:
Glossary of Flooring Terms. Carpet One Flooring Gallery. Hardwood Floors, Ceramic Tile, Porcelain Tile, Carpet. Miami, Florida

Roland this is a Carpet One thing , you have anything to do with it?
I googled carpet glossary and there are oodles of things there.

Daris

[FlooringGirl]

Daris Mulkin said I found this: Glossary of Flooring Terms. Carpet One Flooring Gallery. Hardwood Floors, Ceramic Tile, Porcelain Tile, Carpet. Miami, Florida Roland this is a Carpet One thing , you have anything to do with it? I googled carpet glossary and there are oodles of things there. Daris

Daris,

Interesting, I am now with Carpet One, but when I first heard the "dirt & dung" theory was with CarpetMax in 1999 in Vegas at Surfaces. After all the input, I think of the cleaned-up sheep at the fair or whatever and they have no specks of stuff, pure white - therefore, I still believe in the specks being from entitities such as uncleaned fibers from dirt and dung! LOL Truly, these animals have one color unless there is something else involved. Mainly, dirt!

Tia