Thank you for visiting The Floor Pro Community.
Register for FREE for even more features.    
The Floor Pro Community

Go Back   The Floor Pro Community » Public Forums for the floor Pro, Do-It-Yourselfer & Consumer » Carpet Q&A

How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?



"How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?," in the Carpet Q&A forum, begins: "Those specks in what was originally called berber carpeting originated from woven rugs of the Berber tribe in Africa, they ..."


Reply
 
LinkBack Topic Tools
Old September 13, 2009, 06:26 PM   #1
Dobby Tappet
Vermont Custom
Rug Company
TFP supporter badge
author badge
charter member badge
 
Dobby Tappet's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Glorious Vermont!
Posts: 1,426

How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


Those specks in what was originally called berber carpeting originated from woven rugs of the Berber tribe in Africa, they wove all the dirt and dried dung from the wool into their rugs. This look is of dirt and dung, LOL!!
I'm sorry, but this is a case of misinformation being passed around so long it becomes believable and I knew you would want to know.

Several years ago I knew far more about berber carpet than I do now. The more study I do on the subject, the more confused I become on how anyone could draw a connection between the sacred weaving of the Berber people and the looped pile texture carpet now synonymous with berber in the US.

For the longest time I incorrectly believed that Berber's were nomadic tribes roving Saharan Africa. Truth is, most Berbers are farmers. Which explains the ability to gather and process animal fibers.

Here is another fact: Weaving in the Berber community is done exclusively by women. In addition, it is held in very high regard. So much so, it is believed for a woman to weave forty rugs in a lifetime guarantees a place in heaven. Also worthy of note, weaving is a sacred skill passed from mother to daughter and often centers around fertility and stories of life. Not something that would be done with dirt & dung.

With regards to processing the yarn. The yarn is spun by hand and while it is possible to have yarn pick up specks of debris and fugitive fibers. Ask anyone who has ever spun yarn by hand and they will tell us, dirt and dung is not conducive to the spinning process.

As for the characteristic flecking, the yarn used for weaving is collected over an extended period of time and mixing the fibers from different animals {{e.g.: sheep, goat & camel}} is a common practice.

Another aspect relevant to the issue of dirt & dung is the fact that, for centuries, in cultures with barter based commerce, woven textiles have always been highly valued as a currency. Not an environment that would be supportive to dirt & dung.

One of the startling findings of my explorations into the specific classification of Berber weaving has been the amazingly beautiful colors, patterns and designs that are synonymous with the weaving of the Berber peoples outside of Dalton, Georgia. So what about the neutral textured flecked carpets?

Currently, the very best connection I have been able to draw is, historically, before the Berber peoples converted to Muslim, there existed a belief that it was bad luck to weave with dyed yarn. This practice appears to have completely disappeared by the 1920's.

To date, with years of book reading and internet searching, I have yet to see a true Berber rug, woven by Berber's, in Saharan Africa, that looks anything even close to what our modern industry refers to, or describes, as a berber.

Making my question:

How did the term Berber become part of the modern carpet vernacular?

With kindest regards,

Dobby


Last edited by Dobby Tappet; September 13, 2009 at 09:19 PM.
Dobby Tappet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2009, 06:37 PM   #2
rusty baker
Semi-Retired
TFP supporter badge
charter member badge
 
rusty baker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 6,226

Re: Which carpets have the least amount of chemicals added?


Probably from an Ad agency.

rusty baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2009, 08:27 PM   #3
TFP Admin
Administrator
 
TFP Admin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: teh Ether
Posts: 6,637

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


Dobby, your message above has become an excellent new topic. Thank you.

Jim

TFP Admin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14, 2009, 06:21 AM   #4
DJ
a Floor Pro
TFP supporter badge
charter member badge
 
DJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: washington state/everett
Posts: 1,561

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


i do not know those big words(vernacular) educate me/us

DJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14, 2009, 06:51 AM   #5
Robert Akin
Mr. Nefarious
TFP supporter badge
moderator badge
 
Robert Akin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,307

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


I have to agree with Dobby on this one. It was a short time back I was scratching my head on this one to. I cannot remember what brought the subject up but I thought I was told a berber was any carpet that had a tuff of brown in the weave or something to that effect. Wish I could remember who said that

I remember reading about the tribe in berberland. I just figured they got it from the berber sheep

This is why I stick with commercial installations. I do not have to think as hard.


Rob

Robert Akin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14, 2009, 06:52 AM   #6
Daris Mulkin
The One and Only
TFP supporter badge
charter member badge
 
Daris Mulkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Davison,Mi
Posts: 5,675

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


Seems to me I read somewhere that the Berber Tribe was know for the large loop in their carpets.

Daris

Daris Mulkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14, 2009, 06:55 AM   #7
Robert Akin
Mr. Nefarious
TFP supporter badge
moderator badge
 
Robert Akin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,307

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


Daris Mulkin said View Post
Seems to me I read somewhere that the Berber Tribe was know for the large loop in their carpets.

Daris

Daris,

I think the large loop was in their nose


Rob

Robert Akin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14, 2009, 07:35 AM   #8
Floorguy
The Living Dead
TFP supporter badge
charter member badge
 
Floorguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 3,810

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


Robert Akin said View Post
I was told a berber was any carpet that had a tuff of brown in the weave or something to that effect.

Berber now refers to the color fleck, on a yarn. It doesn't have to be brown and it doesn't have to be a loop pile.

Floorguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14, 2009, 10:00 AM   #9
Peter Kodner
Inspector Floors
TFP supporter badge
charter member badge
 
Peter Kodner's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN.
Posts: 5,558

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


As usual, a post by Dobby that provokes thought. Geez, this guy gives me a headache form using my brain so much

I had always understood it referred to the unbleached,, undyed felted material they made their garments out of. In felted wool "Berber" broadloom, I have seen virtually all earth tones from black to white. To me, it is a color and texture designation.

Peter Kodner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14, 2009, 12:19 PM   #10
getoverit
It is what it is
TFP supporter badge
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bottom left corner of Paradise SW Florida
Posts: 953

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


Well, as one who heard the dung and dirt theory years ago I just learned a lot. I went to google and pulled up a few things on the Berbers. A very diverse and wide spread people. And Dobby is right about their rugs. They are called Kilims and are unique to each region and tribe. they are more like a tapestry than a rug. Their plain weaves are represented by wide variety of stripes and sometimes triangles and diamonds.
Thanks Dob......I'd have gone on thinking the dirt and dung theory was right.
Now how did it become part of the carpet terms we use now? I think because maybe the weave is an interlocking one like the original so called berbers I laid back in the late 70s that you had to cut in and out between the loops and then fit them together like they were a sawtooth. Just a guess on my part.

getoverit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14, 2009, 01:52 PM   #11
getoverit
It is what it is
TFP supporter badge
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bottom left corner of Paradise SW Florida
Posts: 953

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


According to Wikpedia, berber describes any carpet (loop, cut,frieze, etc.)
with 2 colors or more. I don't think that's right though.

getoverit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14, 2009, 01:54 PM   #12
rusty baker
Semi-Retired
TFP supporter badge
charter member badge
 
rusty baker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 6,226

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


Wikepedia is full of errors. Look up something you know a lot about and see how many mistakes you can find.

rusty baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14, 2009, 02:50 PM   #13
getoverit
It is what it is
TFP supporter badge
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bottom left corner of Paradise SW Florida
Posts: 953

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


rusty baker said View Post
Wikepedia is full of errors. Look up something you know a lot about and see how many mistakes you can find.
I know what you mean Rusty......that's why I said I didn't think that was right. I read an article somewhere recently that said Wikpedia could be very inaccurate. I'm still guessing it has something to do with the shape of the weave.

getoverit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14, 2009, 03:34 PM   #14
mcbrides
Canadian Installers
TFP supporter badge
 
mcbrides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Winterpeg, MB
Posts: 1,930
Send a message via Skype™ to mcbrides

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


We think we will listen to Dobby ....

mcbrides is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14, 2009, 04:40 PM   #15
Roland Thompson
CFI Forum Host
TFP supporter badge
charter member badge
forum host
 
Roland Thompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: MD area
Posts: 1,457

Re: How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?


I also learned something today, ( I always try and learn something new every day ) I had always heard it the way Dobby had said it. Never had heard about the dung and dirt story. I also heard it could be any color fleck.

I do wish I had the talent of writting like some of you people do. Mine comes best from face to face.

Roland

Roland Thompson is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Go Back   The Floor Pro Community » Public Forums for the floor Pro, Do-It-Yourselfer & Consumer » Carpet Q&A
go to previous or next topic in this forum
« Carpet underlay - opinions? | lump under carpet? »

Topic Tools


Similar Topics to How did "Berber Carpet" become part of modern carpet vernacular?
Topic Topic Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Home made "knee kicker" board or carpet stretcher? Wecanoe Carpet Q&A 24 July 8, 2009 07:43 PM
Installing "customer's own" carpet mcbrides Carpet Sales and Installations 3 July 7, 2009 04:05 PM
salvaging 18" ceramic tile for a "patch" job richellis333 Ceramic and Stone Q&A 6 May 17, 2009 06:17 PM
Expansion gap around 60"x20"x3/4" marble hearth chipbl Hardwood and Laminates Q&A 1 August 22, 2007 06:30 PM
Menu item "New Posts" has been moved to "Quick Links" TFP Admin TFP Support and Feedback 1 October 18, 2006 12:24 PM

Log in
User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc. | All Site Content ©2006-2012 TheFloorPro.com