Methods of double-stick carpet installation

[mike sliwinski]

This conversation brings up a good point !----- I think double stick padding Manufacturers ( Treadmore + Shaw to name a few) Could make their thicker optioned paddings exactly 1/4 '' thick AND ----This would allow contractors like Hoss and others to specify their products for Tackless installations also, with-out having the picture frame effect.

Also ! I believe their are many occasions, on double stick jobs, that the use of tackless is necessary, as a matter of fact, I believe I read somewhere that the use of tackless is actually required for double stick, is that still the case ? Who, out their can shed some light, and if true, why isn't the pad 1/4'' thick in the first place ?

~Mike

[FlooringGirl]

mike sliwinski said This conversation brings up a good point !----- I think double stick padding Manufacturers ( Treadmore + Shaw to name a few) Could make their thicker optioned paddings exactly 1/4 '' thick AND ----This would allow contractors like Hoss and others to specify their products for Tackless installations also, with-out having the picture frame effect. Also ! I believe their are many occasions, on double stick jobs, that the use of tackless is necessary, as a matter of fact, I believe I read somewhere that the use of tackless is actually required for double stick, is that still the case ? Who, out their can shed some light, and if true, why isn't the pad 1/4'' thick in the first place ? ~Mike

See, this is where I'm confused - have done numerous double-sticks, but never stretched on tackless. Why would that be necessary if the carpet is held firm on the top of a pad by adhesive? How in the world could you even stretch something that is already stuck fast to a pad?

Tia

[TFP Admin]

mike sliwinski said This conversation brings up a good point...

And a new topic. I moved your post and FlooringGirl's reply to a new topic about double-stick.

Jim

[mike sliwinski]

FlooringGirl said See, this is where I'm confused - have done numerous double-sticks, but never stretched on tackless. Why would that be necessary if the carpet is held firm on the top of a pad by adhesive? How in the world could you even stretch something that is already stuck fast to a pad? Tia

Hi Tia,

Yes, it's difficult to stretch over adhesive and sometimes impossible, especially when it's flashed off, but that's not the purpose for the tackless.

For double stick, the purpose of tackless, lets say, at ceramic or wood baseboards, is for the look! and sturdiness! that you get from a tucked carpet into a gully. A double stick finish, alone, can be a challenge at these areas, Unless ! you cut the padding short and create your own quazeye gully area, not the same , but a good compromise, especially if the picture frame effect is high and tackless is no option. ---- Discernment, discernment

It's been many years since my last double stick, but I bet ya, that most installers leave the existing tackless when going from tackless job to dblstk, usually the picture frame effect isn't harmful enough for the removal of tackless.

As a side note, I can picture myself wanting to place some stretch onto the tackless, even on double stick method, in order to get pin penetration. This helps level the carpet with the pad. Overkill !


~Mike

[Daris Mulkin]

Leaving the tackless also eliminates the need for cove base in some instances. You can get a nice finished edge. Don't take to much stretch to hook it to the pins. You can still get the lateral movement. I wouldn't add tackless though unless it was for what Mike said.

Daris

Daris

[Dobby Tappet]

With regards to woven carpets: woven carpets require a firm, dense underlay. This same criteria applies to all woven textiles, including those used in furniture & upholstery applications. The goal is to minimize vertical movement that will result in buckles and taped seam separation/splitting. Cushion thicker than 3/8" are also likely to result in the carpet lifting off the strip. ((40 fiber cushions are ideal))

Many cushions designed for double glue applications have desirable attributes that have nothing to do with adhesive. The low profile, high density cushions are ideal for woven carpets where a softer impact is desired. One example is exercise and game rooms. Another attribute of the slab rubber cushions is the low 'R' values for use a top radiant heat floors and, here in the North Country, we use them frequently.

Cushions designed for double glue, such as Tred-Mor, are available in different thickness. They simply need to be ordered. We frequently use Tred-Mor under conventional stretch-in installations and yes, we must be certain to ensure the quality ordered is at least a 1/4" thick. They just cost more.

In regards to tackless & double glue; tackless is required on woven carpets to secure the structural integrity of the weave along vertical abutments. Unlike tufted carpet, that relies on adhesives for bonding, the structural integrity of a woven carpets rests solely on the completeness of the weave. When the carpet is cut, the integrity is compromised and, unless adequately secured, will ravel and fray. This is especially true with flat-woven products.

One particular benefit tackless brings to traditional double glue installations is in the area of pattern alignment. The ability to manipulate and hold the pattern in place, as the adhesive cures, can be invaluable. Especially when working on surfaces where stay nails may be unsuitable.

Hope this helps.

With kindest regards,

Dobby

[Peter Kodner]

I just love it when Dobby pops in for a visit!

We were big Tredmor fans. I think the numbers for the 1/4 inch were 2580 and 2640, the difference being in density. When having a transition, I always preferred using a zinc terrazzo retainer and butting the carpet flush (actually the backing slightly below the top of the bar). Some sealer and they will perform well for many years. A regular reducer is need if the transition is to resilient or concrete though.

[stullis]

Nothing like some 3/8" 2800 Tredmor if you can lift the roll.

Tackless prevents shrinkage issues too.

[polestretch]

When I had gone to the double stick clinic back in '91, the instructor said it could be installed with or without tackless. Just because the glue is set up, doesn't mean you can't get enough stretch to set the carpet on the pins.
IMO it just looks better.

[Sean Moore]

tackless is installer insurance for double stick. It makes it look better unless you're on 3/8 pad and get that frame. In those cases I still like it at transitions, gives me something to actually attach the carpet to.

never tried making a gully in the underlay and sealing the carpet down in it without tackless, good idea.

[FlooringGirl]

I've just never had an installer use tackless around a double-stick, and never had one be unsuccessful. That was new to me ...

Tia

[BrianM]

Seems like a cleaner, faster and easier finish when the job has tack strip around the walls. We did a few jobs without it at the beginning and then everything eventually was being installed with the strip. It becomes a routine so we stop asking why.

[rugrat]

When we first started double stik and woven carpet was the choice, I noticed problems from the moisture in the glue shrinking the carpet. Shortly after my supervisor sent special d-stik heat tape, and tackless to all woven d-stik jobs. I would burn my seams leaving the paper on the back, then glue as one piece when I could. Rub carpet onto tackless let it set up then cut down after. You guys can mention shrinkage now....can't ya? p.s. of course I removed the paper on the heat tape when droped into glue.

[aaroncarpet]

The tack strip...makes sense, never done it...we used methods of longer open time on adhesives and upped the grade of adhesive to like a Blakely 200....We would transfer the glue and then flip it back again......the only problem is sometimes you pull snot out of the seam area...If you are going to add tack to a double stick it should pay like a stretch in though...cause it seems like you are doing a stretch in and a doublestick, usually an installer is happey on a doublestick cause he or she doesn't need to pull out the pipes...or a hammer drill

[stullis]

It pays or should pay alot more than that Aaron.