This discussion, "Tile Tabletop", in Ceramic and Stone Q&A (part of the category Do-It-Yourself & Consumer Support), begins, "I apologize that this isn't a flooring question. I'm a hobbyist woodworker and I'm making a kitchen table of quartersawn ..."
I apologize that this isn't a flooring question. I'm a hobbyist woodworker and I'm making a kitchen table of quartersawn white oak with a (roughly) 20" x 32" tile field inset in the top. The wooden part of the top will be a large frame so that wood movement will be negligible. The tiles are 4x4 porcelin, 5/16" thick. The inset will be supported around the perimeter and with a brace at the midpoint.
Now to the questions. First, underlayment. I'm thinking that 1/2" plywood will be sufficient given that the area is small and a table doesn't have a great deal of weight on it. Is this reasonable?
Next, grout. There will be a grout line between the tiles and the wood frame. The wood frame will be roughly 7/8" to 15/16" thick (and 9.5" wide on the sides, 12" wide on the ends) so it will be reasonably rigid. But I know that grout lines between different surfaces can be a problem. What can I do to minimize cracking?
As for setting the tile, what size notched trowel should I use? I'm planning 3/16" grout lines, if that is relevant. How much can I expect the thinset to add to the thickness? (I'm trying to determine the overall thickness of the field so that I can plan the woodworking steps appropriately.) I'm guessing about 1/8" but know I could be off. Anything I'm missing?
I've attached a drawing of the table. Thanks for any help you can provide.
BTW, 10 years ago I made a tile top table that we still use today. It has held up very well. The difference is that the entire top is tiled so most of the issues raised above don't apply.
Welcome, David, and thanks for posting this question. It looks like an interesting project and I hope our pros can help you with your questions. I'm wondering if a flexible grout would work? I've seen some acrylic products, some even containing a sand like substance, that might help with this. But maybe not.
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If it was mine I'd go to 3/4" ply instead of 1/2", probably stick a piece of ditra under the tile and use a tile notch large enough to embed the tile flush to the wood.
Then using TFP admin's suggestion and use a flexible grout like the stuff used on Duraceramic.
I'm just guessing that whatever you use in the grout joints, you want it to be smooth. You may want to drop down to an 1/8" joint so you could use either a non-sanded grout in the field and a matched grout caulk on the perimeter. Or grout caulk everywhere. I believe the caulk will shrink some on a 3/16 joint and you may have to go over it again.
I would try a 3/16 V-notched trowel and see if that gets you flush.
The Duraceramic grout is similar to a caulking but much better than the grout caulks that are available durability-wise and ease of use. Other plus is you don't need to use sealer ever like you would with your standard ccment based grouts.
If this table is for interior use only the truth is any bulky construction adhesive will work and its thickness would be negligible. The size of notched trowel (if you use one) is determined by the construction of the backside of the tile and nothing else. Flatter tile requires a smaller notch.
The Duraceramic grout is a good idea in this case but the color-matched tile caulks will work also and they will get real firm in a few weeks while at the same time remain flexible enough to allow for a little expansion and contraction variance between the differing materials the table is made of.
First, thanks to everyone for the very quick replies. The internet is truly an amazing "place."
I have some follow-up questions. The table is for indoor use -- in out kitchen. If I understand correctly, the suggestion is that I can use an adhesive other than thinset to set the tiles. Is this right? If so, that would be great as I think it will make it easier to get the tiles level and even (which is important unless you like your plates to rock).
As for the grout, I've made two other tables with 1/4" grout lines and sanded grout. I think it looks good and works very well on the table top. For this table I chose 3/16" lines since the tiles are 4x4 where I'd used 6x6 in the past. I'm interested in this Duraceramic product? Does it harden like a traditional grout? Is it available to those outside the trade? Since wood movement will be minimal, would it be appropriate for the wood/tile interface as well? Is it sanded? (I think some texture is desireable.)
As for the plywood thickness, I assumed that the suggestion would be to go with 3/4". So after I posted last night I thought about it for a while and came up with a way that I could use it without creating a thickness problem.
Thanks again for your time and for the suggestions.
David
Last edited by dmath; March 16, 2007 at 09:44 PM.
Reason: corrected a spelling error
If you go to a flooring dealer that sells Congoleum Duraceramic or Mannington Adura they would be able to get it for you. Perhaps they would sell you just what you need. The stuff is kinda spendy, $40-50 /gallon which covers approx 150 sq ft. I believe Mapei is actually the manufactuer of the stuff.
It hardens quicker then caulk would, yet still gives some flexibility but not to the extent that caulk does. I feel it would work for the tile/wood interface and there is some texture but is smoother than sanded grout.
Generally speaking it would be easier to level the tiles with thinset rather than glue.
Welcome to the board Dmath ..
Please allow me to correct your typo
The Floor Pro truly an amazing "place." Hee hee .. Good luck with your table , I'm sure the members would like to see a photo of the finish product ..
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Stullis, thanks for the reply (and Nick for the welcome). I'm sure that for a pro it would be easier to get the tiles level with thinset. My thinking was, based on Bud's reply about adhesives, that I could glue individual tiles by applying glue directly to them. It seems to me that the glue would be easier to apply and because the adhesive would be so thin once the tile was in place there would be less variation. I guess that assumes that the tiles are of uniform thickness which I haven't yet checked.
Thinset has body that will hold a tile up if needed, glue doesn't.
One of the big mistakes those who use mastic make when tiling is to build up low spots with mastic. It doesn't work so well.
That said with your small area glue might just work fine too.
Like Nick said, it would be great to see some pics of the finished table.
OK, I understand what you mean about glue vs thinset. But I'll have a big advantage in this project that you guys rarely have when doing a floor: I'll be able to make sure that the plywood substrate is perfectly flat (since it's only 20" x 32" and I can pick the plywood and touch it up with a handplane). So assuming the tiles are of a uniform thickness I think the glue will work well. By the way, the tiles have a grid of recesses on the back for the glue to grab onto.
I'll be happy to post pictures when the table is done. I've never met a woodworker who didn't like to show off his work. Since I'm a hobbyist it will take a while to finish. I hope to have it done in about a month but that may not be realistic.
Thanks.
David
Originally Posted by stullis
Thinset has body that will hold a tile up if needed, glue doesn't.
One of the big mistakes those who use mastic make when tiling is to build up low spots with mastic. It doesn't work so well.
That said with your small area glue might just work fine too.
Like Nick said, it would be great to see some pics of the finished table.
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