Who Is Responsible?

[Danny Ferguson]

Thanks for posting that Bud.

[Bud Cline]

THIS IS A WATER COOLER DISCUSSION THREAD

You bet cha Danny. I would be the first to insist that any installer must be responsible for his own mis-actions but in some cases some things are just beyond his/her control.

A tile installer should be well-versed enough to know what to do and what not to do but the truth is we all have to learn, sometimes the hard way and no one wants to see that.

Danny I moved your response for two reasons. The first one is you posted to that thread before I could figure out how to lock it. The second is I used your post for practice in moving posts. Hope that's OK with you.

[Jerry Thomas]

I will agree with that 100 percent. Good for them. Some installers either don't care, don't know any better or both. Then there are a few installers who attempt to be an engineer which is not real smart either.

[Danny Ferguson]

No worries on moving my reply Bud. I thought about this topic quite a bit today. I feel it will benefit a professional tile contractor, in helping them reinforce a quality installation to a retailer, builder, or customer. On the other hand, I feel it will also benefit a hack tile contractor too, who could give a damn about what type of floor they are laying over. I feel that they will use it as a scape goat to blame the other parties involved. Who knows? I still feel pretty good about it regardless.

[Bud Cline]

My motive for posting it here wasn't necessarily to get us installers off the hook but that is also reasonable. My motive was to notify DIY'ers that there are in fact concerns and structures should be investigated before installing tile. At the same time installers shouldn't have failures shoved down their throat when there are structural concerns.

I agree 100%. If I tile a new house with all the engineered joists and crap do not expect me to look and see if your floor meets L/360, or L/720, . ITS NEW, I'm not the builder. I'm pretty sure that a floor up here has to meet L/480 or something close, which obviously blows 360 out of the way. We're not engineer folks, as someone else said, we are finishing trades. I as well as others cannot be at fault for someone elses problems.

[stullis]

Originally Posted by Jerry . Some installers either don't care, don't know any better or both. .

So that's the excuse for installing product that shouldn't be installed?
Just slap it on the floor collect the check and no responsibility for the installer?

Just another way to provide for cheap labor?

Good luck with that one in court.

[TFP Admin]

This topic is almost 2 years old, Scott.

[Ceramictec]

Originally Posted by TFP Admin This topic is almost 2 years old, Scott.

but has anything changed in those two years ?

[Jerry Thomas]

Originally Posted by stullis So that's the excuse for installing product that shouldn't be installed? Just slap it on the floor collect the check and no responsibility for the installer? Just another way to provide for cheap labor? Good luck with that one in court.

Forgive me but I have no clue as to the point you are trying to make here...

[stullis]

The point... Not only are manufacturers making products to take the professional installer out of the installation process, now we have the TCNA and other bodies trying to take the professional out of the process by dumbing down what an installer should know thereby supposedly allowing the "uneducated" installers a "get out of jail free" card on responsibility. To blindly go in and just install "because the book says its not my responsibility" is unwise and could prove costly.

[quote]Ceramic tile installations require the floor areas over which tile is to be applied to have a deflection not greater that 1/360 of the span when measured under a 300 lb. concentrated load (see ASTM C627). This deflection limitation differs from the L/360 deflection limit under uniform load prescribed by building codes.[quote/]

How many people actually understand this statement? Doesn't sound like the guy above does. Most architects and joist manufacturers don't either. They all refer to building codes not ASTM C627. Even the boys over at JB's don't comprehend this statement and blindly refer to their mighty deflecto. While it is still bettter than nothing technically its still not right.

And yeah it is 2 years old but it links from a sticky and more needed to be said.

[Jerry Thomas]

[quote]

Ceramic tile installations require the floor areas over which tile is to be applied to have a deflection not greater that 1/360 of the span when measured under a 300 lb. concentrated load (see ASTM C627). This deflection limitation differs from the L/360 deflection limit under uniform load prescribed by building codes.[quote/]

No I did not pick up on that part Scott. I will have to do some research on this.

I don't care how old the thread is ..... learning is learning

[Daris Mulkin]

I'm not a cermic person but i like to understand what I'm reading and like Jerry says Knowledge is everything.
I understand what the 300 lbs does but I don't understand what the 1/360 actually means and how do you get it or where it comes from. Tell me please.

Daris

[Daniel Wachtel]

it is a measurement of relative movement. One inch movement in three hundred sixty inches.