Radon Gas & Granite Countertops

[Al Gerhart]

Bud, I am going to intersperse my comments with your questions, in color type.

Originally Posted by Bud Cline I don't have a dog in this fight other than the fact that I have a passion for stone in general. I do however have a curiosity. I'm not able to put my mouse on some vital information. Either I haven't looked in the right places or the information doesn't exist. What I would like to know at this point in time is: "Who is Al Gerhart?" Is there a Bio or some background information about you somewhere Al. So far all I know about you is that you are "down on stone" and it appears in favor of solid surfacing. So... Who are you? I am a cabinet shop owner that also fabricates all sorts of countertop materials, including granite. What/who are your legitimate associations? Not sure what you mean? What qualifies you to be a specialist on the charges you have been making? About three years of research into these issues. I have spent around 40 hours per week digging into this stuff, learning as I go, making lots of scientist friends along the way.Do you have any particular academic studies in this field in your background? No, but everything I post or write about was heavily researched online, in depth, not cut and pasted. What I don't understand I learn.What's the reason for your persistence? I don't like liars, I don't like people coming into my showroom ignorant which means I have to spend hours educating them before I can make what should be a simple sale. The stone industry has been lying about this and a lot more for years with no one calling them on it. The material is what it is, it should be sold as such. Why do you only supply "hot" samples to media outlets? (When there apparently are plenty of "not so hot" samples available to play with.) Finding hot slabs of granite is easy, just visit a slab yard, but getting large enough samples is really tough. You have to have access to the scrap, a way to handle it and cut it up, safely. It is a mistake to say we supply only hot samples, we supply three samples or a sample with all three levels present, high, medium, and low level.Where did you find a station wagon these days? Ford Taurus station wagon, hey neither cabinetmakers or fabricators make a lot of money and shop owners make even less! But we do invest thousands each year in our businesses. You know(?) Stuff like that! Why should anyone listen to you? Help me out here please. What are your credentials? Sorry, no credintials, but I have half a dozen PhD.s guiding me and educating me. I learned enough that they treat me as an equal on most things, but I know when to listen with my mouth shut. Most of the experts know a small portion of what is needed, I excell in getting these guys cooperating, radiological chemist working with nuclear physicsit, working with the Radon expert or Geophysicist. But you know what? Without the knowledge on how stone is worked and the industry operates, they can't do it on their own. I know of another website where a regular participant posts endless drab on various subjects. If you ask him for the time...he builds you a clock, every time. Sometimes you have to build a clock if it isn't a simple answer. You have to explain the jargon along with examples of why the facts make sense. Sorry, it isn't a simple subject. When a question arises he obviously researches it on the Internet then returns to post (copy and paste) endless information on the subject and takes credit for the words himself. Thereby expecting people to think HE has all this knowledge stored in his little brain. When his comments are countered or proven to be incorrect he then continues to argue supplying even more mucus in an attempt to save face and support his earlier comments. In my case, I do have this stuff in my brain. Some you just have to go back and look up, no one can remember a table of measurements or all the details of an entire study. In most cases, when the one raising the question is truly interested, or there are readers that would benefit, I go the trouble to do a comprehensive response. I tend not to respond to complete idiots, not saying there are any here, but on some of the other sites, the ignorance can be breathtaking. I kind of get this same feeling with this "granite thing" of yours. Is that feeling based on fact? No, or you would have stated it as an opinion. No one by you knows why you "feel" that way. Stick around, I'll contribute as I can, and the findings of the other inspectors, Radon testers, and scientists will prove I am right.

[Bud Cline]

Topic sponsored by:

Al,

I appreciate your taking the time necessary to answer my queries in the above manner. Even though I find your information plentiful I am afraid I still don't see what it is that qualifies you to participate in all of the ongoing conversations to the extent that you have. When do you work?

I don't pretend to have even a minimal understanding of the components necessary to form a logical opinion one way or the other as to whether or not radon emissions that may be coming from granite countertops could be a health hazard.

I do think the proper thing to do is to trust the organizations both private and governmental that have investigated this subject and to date drawn conclusions that counter your opinions in many respects, in most all respects.

All this stuff makes my brain hurt and some will certainly suggest it's a small pain anyway.

I'm just not convinced you are who you say you are - no offense intended. I'm thinking your personal motives are not entirely in view. Sorry!

You don't have to bother to counter my comments, I understand and I don't intend to devote any more time to this topic due to my vocational commitments.

So far, I ain't buyin' it I'm afraid!

I do know that continually demonizing organizations like the MIA will provoke the demons in me, and countless others.

[Jim McClain]

Originally Posted by Al Gerhart Bud, I am going to intersperse my comments with your questions, in color type.

See that above? That is all you get when you click the Quote button to reply to your points. There are no points to reply to. Please don't post your comments inside someone elses quote because it makes it VERY difficult for anyone to quote you.

So, I have to do a little copy & paste work...

Originally Posted by Bud What/who are your legitimate associations? Originally Posted by Al Not sure what you mean?

C'mon, anyone in any industry would know exactly what that question meant. What industry associations are you affiliated with? Don't play games.

Originally Posted by Bud Do you have any particular academic studies in this field in your background? Originally Posted by Al No, but everything I post or write about was heavily researched online...

That's not exactly an education by anyone's standards. You say you've studied for 3 years, but even a trade requires 4 years minimum of apprentice work - and they still aren't considered expert in their fields. Who is testing your knowledge? Are they accredited or qualified in any way?

I don't like liars, I don't like people coming into my showroom ignorant which means I have to spend hours educating them before I can make what should be a simple sale.

What's the difference between a person who passes off stuff they are just learning themself as qualified fact and someone who just makes shit up? The guy who makes this stuff up knows he doesn't know the facts. The guy who pretends 3 years of "research online" makes him an expert doesn't know he doesn't know the facts - yet.

Finding hot slabs of granite is easy, just visit a slab yard, but getting large enough samples is really tough.

Spend enough time searching through a hay stack and you will find something that resembles a needle.

I am a cabinet shop owner that also fabricates all sorts of countertop materials, including granite. About three years of research into [radon] issues. I have spent around 40 hours per week digging into this stuff, learning as I go, making lots of scientist friends along the way. Sorry, no credintials, but I have half a dozen PhD.s guiding me and educating me.

Sorry, but without corroboration, your facts aren't facts. Who are these people you say help you? You say they are scientists and PhD.s, so coming up with some names and published reports and some credentials for them should be easy enough.

I just get real uncomfortable when someone brags about all their knowledge and skill, but then you find out they're just beginners and are all caught up in the excitement of being a fanboy for some cause or ideal.

Jim

[Tandy Reeves]

Amen Jim

[Bud Cline]

OK a brief recap!

Of the ten (10) different references Al has made to organizations allegedly reporting and substantiating the ill-effects of radon gas emissions from granite countertops...

...and of the six references researched so far...

...NONE of the organizations have actually panned out. That's OK tho 'cause there are still four (4) remaining and maybe they contain the proof necessary to validate the derogatory claims Al is making.

So this takes me back to Post #52 in this thread:

July 29, 2008 , 06:12 PM Tiffany Daniels Posts: n/a Re: Radon Gas & Granite Countertops We understand why homeowners would be alarmed by this story, but the Marble Institute of America would like to assure people that research shows granite countertops pose no threat. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Consumer Reports and repeated independent studies have shown granite countertops pose no health hazard. --EPA stated Friday: “EPA has no reliable data to conclude that types of granite used in countertops are significantly increasing indoor radon levels.” (What about radon in granite countertops?) --University of Akron researchers found no threat. (http://www.marble-institute.com/indu...-akron2008.pdf) --An independent scientific analysis of a variety of studies shows that, accounting for normal airflow in the typical home, radon contributed by granite countertops ranges from 0.01 – 0.02 pCi/L – levels that are 200 to 400 times lower than the EPA guideline of 4 pCi/L. By some measures, the amount of radon emitted by a granite countertop is less than one millionth of that already present in household air from other sources. Many granite countertops do not emit radon at all, and those treated with sealant reduce emissions even further. Tiffany Daniels Cohn & Wolfe on behalf of the Marble Institute of America

[Al Gerhart]

Originally Posted by Bud Cline OK a brief recap! Of the ten (10) different references Al has made to organizations allegedly reporting and substantiating the ill-effects of radon gas emissions from granite countertops... ...and of the six references researched so far... ...NONE of the organizations have actually panned out. That's OK tho 'cause there are still four (4) remaining and maybe they contain the proof necessary to validate the derogatory claims Al is making. So this takes me back to Post #52 in this thread:

Okay, I guess I have to be patient and spell it out one more time.
Take what Tiffiany with the MIA wrote, follow the links back and read the actual studies.

Or just read what she wrote and get a taste of the bald face lies in that short message.

You will have to look this up on the Akron report, they found .27 pCi/L of Radon from Crema Bordeax.

Next Tiffiany/MIA claim
"0.01 – 0.02 pCi/L – levels that are 200 to 400 times lower than the EPA guideline of 4 pCi/L."
Okay, the Akron report saw about 7% of the EPA action level from Crema Bordeaux, now they are claiming that levels are usually 200 to 400 times lower, not 14 times lower. Get it? The two facts collide?
Then they claim
"By some measures, the amount of radon emitted by a granite countertop is less than one millionth of that already present in household air from other sources."
Okay, the Akron report claims that average outside air is .4 pCi/L Radon, but the found some emitting .27 pCi/L (Crema Bordeaux). Now they are saying that it is more like one millionth of what is present normally?

Please read this slowly, move your lips if that helps! First it was 200 to 400 times lower, then it was 14 times lower (7%), now it is a million times lower!!

Then go to the MIA website,care and cleaning page as well as the page on sealers. You will find out that it is not a good idea to seal a stone to vapor proof conditions. Nor can you seal the bottom of the stone.

Then they claim "Many granite countertops do not emit radon at all" while just admiting that some have between 0.01 – 0.02 pCi/L.

Got it? They are lying through their teeth. Some of these statements might be true for some stones, but they all can't be true at once.

[rgfloor]

Al. I am new to this, so bear with me.

I am a simple country guy so my questions may be innane to you highly edumicated ones.

#1 Is ALL stone or granite full of Radon.

#2 Will the stone in a kitchen kill me, or mine?

#3 What are the health risks from stone? Long term? Short term?

Please keep the answers simple for me, Thanks.

[Al Gerhart]

Originally Posted by rgfloor Al. I am new to this, so bear with me. I am a simple country guy so my questions may be innane to you highly edumicated ones. #1 Is ALL stone or granite full of Radon. #2 Will the stone in a kitchen kill me, or mine? #3 What are the health risks from stone? Long term? Short term? Please keep the answers simple for me, Thanks.

1. No, not all stone is a problem. The problem is that we don't know which ones are a problem. To say any are full is not quite accurate, Radon is produced continually and never runs out for billions of years.

2. No one really knows how many have been harmed, nor will it be easy in most cases to prove it harmed anyone. But a plaintiff doesn't have to "prove" anything. That is why I investigated these issues before I started selling granite. There is John the contractor in the Sugarman's case. Two years and two months exposure, diagnosed lung cancer, Home Depot paid him off and had him sign a non disclosure document. Stan Liebert and Dr. Sugarman didn't sign one though.

3. Supposely long term, but like the half life of a radioactive material, the average time means nothing. John got lung cancer in a short time, but the latency period for lung cancer is usually years. Depends on the dose, the first reported cases in medival Europe had widows burying five and even six husbands, but that was monster doses.

And I am not that edumicated myself, just persistent. Thanks for asking the questions and ignoring the mob.
Speaks well of you.

[rgfloor]

Originally Posted by Al Gerhart 1. No, not all stone is a problem. The problem is that we don't know which ones are a problem. To say any are full is not quite accurate, Radon is produced continually and never runs out for billions of years. 2. No one really knows how many have been harmed, nor will it be easy in most cases to prove it harmed anyone. But a plaintiff doesn't have to "prove" anything. That is why I investigated these issues before I started selling granite. There is John the contractor in the Sugarman's case. Two years and two months exposure, diagnosed lung cancer, Home Depot paid him off and had him sign a non disclosure document. Stan Liebert and Dr. Sugarman didn't sign one though. 3. Supposely long term, but like the half life of a radioactive material, the average time means nothing. John got lung cancer in a short time, but the latency period for lung cancer is usually years. Depends on the dose, the first reported cases in medival Europe had widows burying five and even six husbands, but that was monster doses. And I am not that edumicated myself, just persistent. Thanks for asking the questions and ignoring the mob. Speaks well of you.

1) Is there a simple test that could be done to 'rule out' the stone that produces radon? If so use it and let's move on.

2) You say " it will be hard to prove anything" then say that HD paid someone off. Any proof or did they just get tired of fighting?

3) "John got lung cancer" was that proven to be related to radon? Did he ever smoke? Was he ever in a room where smoking was going on ? Did he ever drive a new car? The formaldahyde that they used in upholstry and interiors of cars HAS been proven to cause cancer. Was he ever exposed to asbestos? So many questions, I see why it is hard to prove anything!

4)Is there documentation of these medival cases? By the way my ancestors came from Europe and one of them had like five wives that died early, from childbirth, penumonia and sharp steel hitting them in the head. No Radon that I know of!

Maybe Al does have something here. All these monks and priests living in stone castles in Europe surrounded by Granite and Radon, fried their brains and they became pedophiles.

[NumbersBoy]

Thank you Bill & All The Others who have contributed to the debate.
Although it is important not to let B.S. of this caliber go unopposed, you have one really big problem here. Mabe you've already figured it out.

Al's not a "hired gun" for the Solid Surface Industry. Maybe a pawn, a willing fool, but not a man working FOR anybody. (Too bad. No chance of him getting fired! LOL) He's on a "Mission From God" (apologies to Jake & Ellwood).

He's a "savior". The guy who see's it all perfectly clear, and wonders why the whole world is so stupid as to not recognize the dire threat right in their very homes. And dammit; HE"S going to point it out to them.
And by devoting his life to this cause, he will save lives, and maybe, someday, get the recognition he deserves for bringing this menace out in the open.
Maybe he'll even get to go on the the ultimate "savior" field trip; to Testify before a Congressional Investigation (insert the Hallelujah Chorus here).

And Logic and Facts that don't fit the "vision" he's been blessed with MUST be WRONG! And there is nothing you can do to change that.


Sorry if I start the dog barkin' again. But when the dude starts talkin' about "lung cancer in the Middle Ages" I just had to speak up!

Paul

[Al Gerhart]

Originally Posted by rgfloor 1) Is there a simple test that could be done to 'rule out' the stone that produces radon? If so use it and let's move on. 2) You say " it will be hard to prove anything" then say that HD paid someone off. Any proof or did they just get tired of fighting? 3) "John got lung cancer" was that proven to be related to radon? Did he ever smoke? Was he ever in a room where smoking was going on ? Did he ever drive a new car? The formaldahyde that they used in upholstry and interiors of cars HAS been proven to cause cancer. Was he ever exposed to asbestos? So many questions, I see why it is hard to prove anything! 4)Is there documentation of these medival cases? By the way my ancestors came from Europe and one of them had like five wives that died early, from childbirth, penumonia and sharp steel hitting them in the head. No Radon that I know of! Maybe Al does have something here. All these monks and priests living in stone castles in Europe surrounded by Granite and Radon, fried their brains and they became pedophiles.

Topic sponsored by:

1. Yes, there is a quick test that eliminate the threat of Radon and radiation, along with any uranium leaching problem with granite. A simple Geiger Counter or Scintillator measurement will suffice. The solution is so simple and at such a near zero cost, you have to wonder why there is such a fuss over this issue. Just test it.If it is hot, don't put it in a home.

2. My guess would be that Home Depot just didn't want to take a chance on losing , so they quietly offered a settlement. This is big business, they wouldn't fight over principle, just pay it and call it the cost of doing business. Or it was cheaper to just pay the guy off.

From a small company's view point, does it matter? It would cost you a lot of money regardless. Even with liability insurance, I can't afford to be paying off even nuscience claims.

3. You are completely correct that there were many other factors that could have caused or contributed to the lung cancer. The problem was that high levels of those carcinogens weren't found in the home, high Radon and radiation were found. Refer to #2 answer for why Home Depot paid the guy off.

4. Sure, plenty is online about the History of Radon that describes the Radon causing lung cancer in miners

Good questions RGFloor. Do you mind if I ignore the yapping litttle dogs? One exception, since Numbersboy brought up this :

"But when the dude starts talkin' about "lung cancer in the Middle Ages" I just had to speak up! "

I would believe if Numbersboy were too lazy to verfiy the truth of the Radon/miner claim before attacking, we all can write him off as being ignorant of the facts. I did make one mistake, I said medival, and this was more like the 1400's through the 1900's. My bad.

Sorry adminsitrators, an easy target like that is hard to resist. But Bud, are you going to warn the others not to use personal attacks, or just me? If not, I suppose I get to reply to Bill's and Numbersboy's attacks?

[rgfloor]

Originally Posted by Al Gerhart 1. Yes, there is a quick test that eliminate the threat of Radon and radiation, along with any uranium leaching problem with granite. A simple Geiger Counter or Scintillator measurement will suffice. The solution is so simple and at such a near zero cost, you have to wonder why there is such a fuss over this issue. Just test it.If it is hot, don't put it in a home. 2. My guess would be that Home Depot just didn't want to take a chance on losing , so they quietly offered a settlement. This is big business, they wouldn't fight over principle, just pay it and call it the cost of doing business. Or it was cheaper to just pay the guy off. From a small company's view point, does it matter? It would cost you a lot of money regardless. Even with liability insurance, I can't afford to be paying off even nuscience claims. 3. You are completely correct that there were many other factors that could have caused or contributed to the lung cancer. The problem was that high levels of those carcinogens weren't found in the home, high Radon and radiation were found. Refer to #2 answer for why Home Depot paid the guy off. 4. Sure, plenty is online about

Al

1) You answered the question beautifully!! Shut up and test it!! End of discussion!!

2) See answer to #1, test it and there is no worry over liability!!

3) I was not asking about the home, if you read the question I referenced many other things. Please speak to those.

4) That is a dead link!!

[Bud Cline]

From the Marble Institute of America

Eperts and Research Agree:
Granite counter tops pose little or no health risks.....



Marble Institute of America

[Bud Cline]

Radon Testing of Various Countertop Materials
Final Report
by
L. L. Chyi
Department of Geology and Environmental Science
The University of Akron
Akron, OH 44325-4101
May, 2008

http://www.marble-institute.com/indu...-akron2008.pdf

[Bud Cline]

Not necessarily pertaining to granite countertops but interesting:



Radon Project of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and Columbia University Department of Statistics