Another bad shower

Kman · February 27, 2010, 11:23 PM

Worst thing about this shower, it's in a brand new house, they moved in December 3rd. The homeowner noticed that the grout was cracking, particularly along the curb and seat. The original installer came back more than once, ground out the cracking grout, and filled it in with matching caulk. The last time he was called, his response was to ask the homeowner if he had some caulk there, and if so, he could just do the 'repair' himself.

Looking at the back of one wall through the pump access of the adjacent tub, I could see drywall was used, as well as a PVC liner. Not a good combination. Homeowner has had enough double-talk from the builder and the tile installer, and told me to just get it torn out and re-done.

Day one - curb torn out, walls and seat torn out, floor busted out with a jackhammer. New solid concrete curb formed up and poured, bonded to the slab with thinset.

Here's the shower before I started. We did just a little bit of investigative work by popping a couple of tiles. I find that the tile on the bench is stuck to Hardibacker over lumber. The curb is the same on the top, but on the outside the tile is bonded with thinset directly to dimensional lumber.

This is the inside of the step before the top was pulled off. You can see the liner was cut even with the top of the step, instead of wrapping it over the top and outside. There are several nails through the Hardibacker...and the liner. After the tile was pulled off the top, we find saturated Hardibacker and wet lumber. This is the direct cause of the cracking grout. As the lumber got wet and expanded, something had to give.

These next four pictures depict the seat as it is dismantled. You can see in the first picture that there is almost no thinset stuck to the Hardibacker. The installer apparently combed thinset on the back of the tile and stuck it to the Hardibacker. Not a bad technique, I use it myself. But the Hardi should have been lightly dampened, then thinset should have been flat-troweled onto the Hardi for this method to work. We also find that 1/4" Hardibacker has been used with no other supporting lumber. A minimum of 5/8" plywood should have been used to support the top of the seat. 1/4" Hardi was also used on the face of the seat. 1/2" Hardi would be the bare minimum here. After removing the Hardibacker, we find that the wood-framed seat has been installed directly onto the liner, and secured by nailing the bottom piece directly through the liner and into the wall. The lumber is wet in several places, and mold has started to grow on the piece that sits on the liner (Keep in mind folks, this house is less than three months old, and hasn't been used in two weeks) We also find that the installer used the seat as a trash can. The homeowner said he had already removed several cigarette butts before the seat was closed up.

The floor has been taken out with a jackhammer. I immediately find several nails through the liner no more than an inch from the floor. These were nails that were used to secure the drywall, but should have been kept up at least a foot off the floor. As I busted out the floor, I began noticing that the 1" tile were coming up in sections, irrespective of their nylon mesh backing. What I find is that there was no bond between the tile and thinset underneath, and they were being held in place by grout and gravity. The second picture you see is actually the backs of the floor tile. There wasn't even any thinset residue on them. I'm also able to take out the lumber that was resting on the liner. As you can tell by looking at the underside of it, it's well on its way to rotting. We also can see that the liner is cut off at each end of the curb, with no PVC corners to keep water inside the shower.

I pulled off the walls in large sections, and I find that the bottom foot of drywall around the perimeter had been cut out, then replaced after the liner was put in. I also find that the drywall had been treated with Mapei Aquadefense. A decent product, but in this case it worked against the shower drying out. The drywall was set down below the top of the mud bed, which allowed water to wick up the gypsum core. With the PVC liner behind the drywall, and Aquadefense on the face of it, the moisture is trapped. It's simply a matter of time before it starts growing some serious mold. The liner has been installed directly on the slab, with nothing underneath to slope it and channel the water to the drain. No matter, though. The weep holes are completely clogged with cement, and the bench and curb construction were enough to warrant a complete tear-out anyway.

Now that all the nastiness is out of this shower, I've finished out the night by framing up the new curb for concrete with a couple of 2x6's. I applied about 1/4" of slightly runny thinset to the slab, then I shoveled in 80lbs. of 5000 psi Quikrete and troweled it off. Since I'm not working here on Sunday, it'll have about a day and a half to set up. Concrete is always the best choice when building a curb over a slab. Moisture in the slab can be trapped inside the curb, particularly when it's wrapped with Kerdi. If we had built it with wood again, we could be back where we started.

More later in the week: Monday, hang new drywall for Kerdi, install Kerdi drain and pack in the mud bed.

Tuesday, install Kerdi.

Kman · February 27, 2010, 11:31 PM

Forgot to mention: the installer said he has built over three hundred showers this way and never had a problem.

What I wouldn't give to have the names and phone numbers of all those customers. I'd have work for the next two years.

stullis · February 28, 2010, 11:15 AM

You need to do your curbs differently.

Lo Down · March 1, 2010, 10:06 PM

Kman said

Forgot to mention: the installer said he has built over three hundred showers this way and never had a problem.

What I wouldn't give to have the names and phone numbers of all those customers. I'd have work for the next two years.

You quoted me wrong. I only said I have taken over 300 showers.

Wow, as time consuming as a job like that is, why did he even make the effort. From the first photo, it looked like he did a decent job.
I'm not a tile guy, but I see some unbelievable practices. Using green lumber for the structure? Home owner isn't paying for this I hope.

Kman · March 2, 2010, 12:11 AM

It's going to cost him some. Builder is paying what another installer quoted him to tear it all out and re-do it, supposedly to better standards. So you can imagine what he paid for the original install. I don't know why he doesn't just pay to have it done correctly to begin with.

No, wait, I do know. If the crappy job makes it past a year, he gets off with a cheap shower that the homeowner has to foot the bill to replace. Even if he has to pay to replace one out of ten, he still comes out ahead.

stullis · March 2, 2010, 12:48 PM

If incorrect methods are taken then he is not off the hook in a year.

That common misconception saves many installers especially tile setters.

Kman how long you planning on letting that concrete set up?
Use a mud mix next time or even better a kerdi curb.

kylenelson · March 2, 2010, 02:21 PM

The sad part is, this guy more than likely knows how to do things the right way.

Kman · March 2, 2010, 06:46 PM

stullis said

If incorrect methods are taken then he is not off the hook in a year.

That common misconception saves many installers especially tile setters.

Kman how long you planning on letting that concrete set up?
Use a mud mix next time or even better a kerdi curb.

The curb set up for three days before I covered it. It's a fast setting concrete that is ready for foot traffic in 10 hours. I wondered how strong a solid mud curb would be that is 5" tall and 4 1/2" thick. As for the Kerdi curb, to expensive compared to $5 for a sack of concrete. Only advantage to it is that it's ready to use as soon as it's installed.

stullis · March 2, 2010, 10:00 PM

Mud curbs are done everyday in shower construction.

Fast setting is one thing curing is the other issue. You can walk on a concrete slab fairly soon, still recommend 28 days cure time.

Kerdi covering should protect you though.

Cost of your Sakrete, lumber and time vs kerdi curb installed? I'll take the kerdi curb.

Kman · March 5, 2010, 11:12 PM

Sorry, not a lot of in-progress pics. Kept forgetting my camera.

Got the drywall installed on Monday, along with the mud floor.

On Tuesday, I installed two Recess-it boxes (one his, one hers). I recessed the flange of the boxes into the drywall about 1/16". This keeps the wall flat and saves having to float the wall out with thinset to minimize the inevitable "speed bump" as I tile up to the box. I also installed a Better Bench in the corner. I got the Kerdi installed on Tuesday, and started tiling Wednesday.

First day, I tiled up three rows and installed an accent made of glass and stone. Second day, tiled two more rows and another accent, along with the two recess-it boxes.

Friday, I did the last row and a bullnose on top and sides, tiled the floor and step. Tomorrow will be the grout and reinstall the glass door.

TFP Admin · March 5, 2010, 11:36 PM

Pretty handsome lookin' shower there, Kevin. You're doin' good.

'Cause I know you use it a lot, do you every shop for Schluter Systems products online? One of our new sponsors, Shag Tools, is the only authorized dealer online. Check them out by clicking the banner below.

Jim

Kman · March 6, 2010, 07:43 PM

That's good to know.

Although, while checking out their website, I found this:

Shagtools is only authorized to ship Schluter products to these states IA, IL, MI (UP only), MN, ND, NE, SD, WI, WY.

....so I wouldn't be able to use them.

TFP Admin · March 6, 2010, 08:38 PM

That is not what I wanted to hear, But I'm glad you found out and let me know about it. I just sent an email off to the affiliate manager, but I may not hear back until Monday.

Sorry for giving you a bum rap.

Jim

stullis · March 8, 2010, 12:22 AM

Shower is looking great Kman!

Kman · March 8, 2010, 12:54 AM

Thanks. I finished it Saturday, but forgot my camera (again

). The homeowner is going to take some finished pics for me later. I'll post them when I'm finished.

The homeowners are happy with it, and are surprised at how much bigger the shower looks with the original bench gone and the Better Bench installed, freeing up that floor space, and the two corner shelves gone and replaced with the Recess-It boxes. You can't see it in the original pics, but the upper shelf was more than six feet from the floor. The lady of the house, who is 5'1", couldn't even reach it.

I think they'll also find that this Kerdi shower dries much faster than the original PVC liner and mud shower, which reduces the chances of mold growth. They were toweling the shower dry every morning, and still wouldn't completely dry out after several hours. Of course, the gypsum-based backer wouldn't ever dry out, no matter how long they went without using it.