What makes a quality carpet

[Mark in Tulsa]

Please forgive me if my prior post came across rude. I was thinking during church this morning after my post nd I don't want to come across as rude. I'm just a little stressed since I found out early this morning I have to drive to California to see my best friend who may not make it from a wreck he had late last night. Plus I am really passionate about what I sell.

So please forgive/ignore me if I was rude.
Also ignore my grammatical errors.for I am typing this on pda.

[Peter Kodner]

Mark, you misconstrue what I have said. I am not trying to handicap fibers (well, maybe polyesters and polypropylenes ). You have made a statement that is provably false, namely type 6,6 is superior to type 6 for carpet fiber and yarn. They both have their own slight differences in composition but there have been several studies that have established there is no appreciable difference when made into carpet. DuPont started this as a marketing ploy over 25 years ago in the commercial sector and it didn't fly there despite their best efforts. I have no idea where I have a copy, but the study by one of the southeastern schools (I think it was either Duke or Georgia Tech.) in the late 80's disproved this hype.

Some info I was able to put my hands on quickly:

From KOSA Dictionary of Fiber & Textile Technology: Found under "Nylon Fiber": "Although nylon 6 has a much lower melting point than nylon 6,6 (a disadvantage for a few applications) it has superior resistance to light degradation and better dyeability, elastic recovery, fatigue resistance and thermal stability." For the record: melting point of type 6,6: 250 Centigrade (482 F) , for type 6: 220 Centigrade (428 F).

You certainly have not broken any rules, but there is an expectation opinion is stated as such, not posited as fact.
I would be happy to continue the discussion of pros and cons but will rely on information from sources in addition to Invista/DuPont. They inarguably have an agenda to sell the most Stainmaster labeled fiber they can. Make no mistake, Stainmaster/Invista (and DuPont before selling the nylon fiber business) produce excellent fibers, but, and this is a big BUT, it is not the only nylon that performs excellent in carpet constructions. It is a huge disservice to even make that contention.

[TFP Admin]

Mark_in_Tulsa said Please forgive me if my prior post came across rude. I was thinking during church this morning after my post nd I don't want to come across as rude. I'm just a little stressed since I found out early this morning I have to drive to California to see my best friend who may not make it from a wreck he had late last night. Plus I am really passionate about what I sell. So please forgive/ignore me if I was rude. Also ignore my grammatical errors.for I am typing this on pda.

You are fine with me, Mark. You weren't rude. Passionate about your opinions and this industry is an asset for us, not a liability. Our rules are very simple and you haven't broken any of them. Thank you for your participation.

T
PS: Best wishes for your friend. God speed.

[Mark in Tulsa]

Peter Kodner said Mark, you misconstrue what I have said. I am not trying to handicap fibers (well, maybe polyesters and polypropylenes ). You have made a statement that is provably false, namely type 6,6 is superior to type 6 for carpet fiber and yarn. They both have their own slight differences in composition but there have been several studies that have established there is no appreciable difference when made into carpet. DuPont started this as a marketing ploy over 25 years ago in the commercial sector and it didn't fly there despite their best efforts. I have no idea where I have a copy, but the study by one of the southeastern schools (I think it was either Duke or Georgia Tech.) in the late 80's disproved this hype. Some info I was able to put my hands on quickly: From KOSA Dictionary of Fiber & Textile Technology: Found under "Nylon Fiber": "Although nylon 6 has a much lower melting point than nylon 6,6 (a disadvantage for a few applications) it has superior resistance to light degradation and better dyeability, elastic recovery, fatigue resistance and thermal stability." For the record: melting point of type 6,6: 250 Centigrade (482 F) , for type 6: 220 Centigrade (428 F). You certainly have not broken any rules, but there is an expectation opinion is stated as such, not posited as fact. I would be happy to continue the discussion of pros and cons but will rely on information from sources in addition to Invista/DuPont. They inarguably have an agenda to sell the most Stainmaster labeled fiber they can. Make no mistake, Stainmaster/Invista (and DuPont before selling the nylon fiber business) produce excellent fibers, but, and this is a big BUT, it is not the only nylon that performs excellent in carpet constructions. It is a huge disservice to even make that contention.

I really don't know what to say. This is just the first time I have heard anyone in the industry say type 6 is equal to type 6,6.

I googled to see if I could find a study that talks about 6 vs 6,6, and I really didn't find anything that talked about them being equal.
Here is one write up that I found that does a good job.
http://antron.net/pdf_files/literatu...ff_between.pdf
I don't have time to post more now, as I am out the door to Cali in just a few min.

Shaw and Mohawk both have their own Nylon factories, but there is still a reason why they buy type 6,6 nylon to out in their better carpets.
If it didn't matter, they would just make and sell the cheaper type 6 for a better profit margin.

[Peter Kodner]

Mark, the link you posted is to an Invista position paper, hardly an unbiased source of information. I do have several old Allied and BASF papers that take a different view on this. I can se if they will scan and the n post them if you wish to see them.

Over the years only DuPont, and now Invista, have claimed superiority. Monsanto/Solutia to my knowledge has never taken that tack. BASF and Allied always contended there is no appreciable performance difference between their branded fibers.

You mention mill extrusions which, until Shaw acquired Honeywell's nylon business, was a very poor basis for comparison of nylon polymer structures. Any branded nylon fiber was superior to mill extrusions. Most mills had adapted olefin extruders for nylon and were not making advanced generation nylon fiber. Virtually all mill extrusions were solution dyed as they lacked the sophistication to engineer dye sites as the four major fiber producers could. I think a better comparison would have been mill extruded nylons to branded polypropylenes.

Even before Shaw bought Honeywell, they and Mohawk were buying type 6 from Honeywell. I think you also have a misconception that type 6 is significantly cheaper than 6,6. The old premium Zeftron from BASF was very close in cost to Antron. I do admit is has been a substantial time frame since I developed a performance spec for a job, but this was the case in 1998.

I almost forgot to say I too did not think you were rude at all. Honest dialog is always good and having passion for your vocation is a blessing too. I share that passion for our industry as well. Please drive careful, take care of your business in California, and we will pick up this conversation when you return!

[FlooringGirl]

Sorry, but I'm going to bring a little humor into this. My co-worker asked, "If wool shrinks when washed and dried under heat, why don't sheep shrink after it rains and the sun comes out?".
Tia

I'm sure glad i found this site before i purchased my flooring to keep me from making a mistake. the information posted by all you experts aided my decision to buy marble flooring and stay away from wood and carpet even though there are many good quality products to choose from, but God makes marble and He knows how to make quality

[Peter Kodner]

Pierre, God makes wood too It was probably around as flooring even before marble (Can't say for sure- i wasn't around then ) but I have to believe ancient humans learned to work wood before stone.

Wool is pretty much controlled by the Guy Upstairs as well. We may mess with selective breeding, but he created the source

I am very pleased to hear we here at TFP may have had a small part in your happy purchase. My hope is you are around for many, many years to continue enjoying it

I think the Man is responsible for most of the stuff we walk on. Anyway, I just wanted to agree with Pierre. You guys really know your stuff!

Mark in Tulsa said About 95% of what we sell is StainMaster nylon. We know it performes, we know it wears better than any other fiber, and it can hold up to more everyday stains than other fibers. We also know with it's repel and release technology that it allows the consumer to vacumm out 40% more dirt than any other fiber on the market. With 80% of all claims issued on carpet being soil related that is really important. We advise the customer that once they get into a 32oz. or higher StainMaster carpet they will all perform really well. The quality is very close to being the same, it's just that your paying for the thicker heavier carpet. And the reason for the 32oz or higher is when StainMaster adds the texture retention warranty. From track records of the other fibers, and from what we have discussed with the big wigs at the mills, StainMaster has been and still is their best fiber. The other 5%we sell is Shaw's generic Anso nylon with the R2x topical stain repellent. We do not carry any other fiber.

I like what this man has to say. It is easy AND if we were giving advice to a customer who doesnt understand the gauge the weight the twist and other variables that we now use as marketing tools. It is the truth when you break it down. I disagree with comments being negative to Polyesters, Here is why if you want to spend 18-25 yard installed your best value is probably a polyester, you can get more for your money. If you are only interested in quality I love Wear Dated and Stainmaster products depending on the look you are going for.

Keep on Keeping on.

[stullis]

Humble Salesman said , Here is why if you want to spend 18-25 yard installed your best value is probably a polyester, you can get more for your money. .

Hmm that would only leave about 5-12 yard for the carpet after pad and install. I ain't seen any good carpet selling for that price.

[Mark in Tulsa]

stullis said Hmm that would only leave about 5-12 yard for the carpet after pad and install. I ain't seen any good carpet selling for that price.

Are you saying pad and labor is 13 bucks a yard up there?

[stullis]

If you are smart it is.

[Tandy Reeves]

We also must not forget that quality carpet is in the eyes of the consumer picking out what they want and not what we want to sell them.

[Country Flooring Direct]

About what the client likes. I sold my mother a stainmaster extra life carpet 8-12 years ago not sure when. It looks like the day she bought it. My Step Father hates the carpet and want to replace it, never liked it because it came out of my fathers shop. So yeah I would say what the customer wants is the most important thing ever.

The best holder of dirt for your carpet is a wear dated nylon the next best would be a stainmaster extra life i believe. If you want a cheap nylon non branded nylons I think you are better off with a Sorona product because they say that they wear and clean better.

My humble opinion,

keep on keeping on.