When is the warranty over?

[TwoStar]

I came across a question today that my buddy and I discussed amongst ourselves and with the homeowner while he was filling out his warranty card on his replacement floor.
Why is it that when there is a replacement floor given by the manufacturer (i.e. Congoleum) the replacement flooring doesn't carry the original warranty. The people still paid full price for the original goods, why don't they get to enjoy the warranty on their replaced floor?

Oh...and congrats to me on my 100th post!!!!!!!

[rgfloor]

TwoStar said Why is it that when there is a replacement floor given by the manufacturer (i.e. Congoleum) the replacement flooring doesn't carry the original warranty. The people still paid full price for the original goods, why don't they get to enjoy the warranty on their replaced floor?

According to a snippet from Congoleums Warranty site they do:

WARRANTY REMEDY

If your Congoleum floor fails to perform under the conditions of the applicable limited warranty within the warranty period, Congoleum will at its option repair the defective area(s) or supply new Congoleum material of the same color, design, and grade, if available; if unavailable or discontinued, Congoleum reserves the right to select and supply similar Congoleum material. After corrective action is taken on an existing defect, you will continue to receive warranty coverage for the remaining period of your original warranty.


ps: this is exactly the type of thing I am asking about. Confusion over the terms of the warranty and how to handle it.

[Jim McClain]

rgfloor said According to a snippet from Congoleums Warranty site they do: Excerpt from: Congoleum WARRANTY REMEDY If your Congoleum floor fails to perform under the conditions of the applicable limited warranty within the warranty period, Congoleum will at its option repair the defective area(s) or supply new Congoleum material of the same color, design, and grade, if available; if unavailable or discontinued, Congoleum reserves the right to select and supply similar Congoleum material. After corrective action is taken on an existing defect, you will continue to receive warranty coverage for the remaining period of your original warranty.

That does not extend the warranty to the full term for the replacement material, it only continues the warranty period of the original purchase.

Jim

[rgfloor]

Jim McClain said That does not extend the warranty to the full term for the replacement material, it only continues the warranty period of the original purchase. Jim

I would agree with that, so if a 15 year warrantied floor is replaced after 3 years they still get 12 more years of warranty. They get their 15 year warranty, it just took 2 installs to do so!!
I feel that is fair, as they got what they orignally purchased, which is is 15 years.

Actually that is generous, as one other manufacturer clearly states that if the floor is replaced for mold or mildew, that the replacement is a one time option.

[TwoStar]

I have been involved in a few Congoleum warranty issues. The homeowner was told in each case that they had a choice of money or new unwarranted product. Installation was or wasn't included in each specific case. I don't get it and Congoleum won't explain it. It doesn't seem fair to the HO. Talking to the HO afterward, it is fairly clear that Congoleum comes off as a bully.

[Jackreed]

TwoStar said I have been involved in a few Congoleum warranty issues. The homeowner was told in each case that they had a choice of money or new unwarranted product. Installation was or wasn't included in each specific case. I don't get it and Congoleum won't explain it. It doesn't seem fair to the HO. Talking to the HO afterward, it is fairly clear that Congoleum comes off as a bully.

I've had two or three over the last ten years with Congoleum. They replaced the vinyl and in one case replaced the underlayment. I was paid labor on all of them by Congoleum. Is this statement coming from retailer, distributor or Congoleum?

[rusty baker]

I have replaced numerous carpet and vinyl warranty jobs thru the years. Material was aiways replaced free and retailer always ate the labor. No different than working on cars. If a mechanic gets a bad starter, starter is replaced free and mechanic eats the labor. Not fair, but that's the way its done.

[DJ]

rusty baker said I have replaced numerous carpet and vinyl warranty jobs thru the years. Material was aiways replaced free and retailer always ate the labor. No different than working on cars. If a mechanic gets a bad starter, starter is replaced free and mechanic eats the labor. Not fair, but that's the way its done.

been a while ........... but what he said

[TwoStar]

This was from the Congo rep that came out to see the floors. On the other hand I have seen Congo offer a settlement to pacify HOs when there was really no problems. The floor wasn't perfectly flat, so the butted DuraCeramic ran off a bit(1/32") The HO complained, Congo gave HO $1000.
When I meet at a job, with Congo, dealer and HO, I am always afraid(stomach ache afraid) that I will get railroaded and embarrassed since, like has been mentioned here before, there are no perfect jobs, and when no one wants to take responsibility they will all start pointing fingers. And, who was the last person to touch this floor? That'd be me.
The good news is that I haven't gotten tagged with the blame for quite a few years, but the stomach ache is still there.

Is it possible that the offer was made to pacify the HO(and the dealer) and Congo didn't really see a problem and a new one would probably do the same thing?

[rgfloor]

TwoStar said This was from the Congo rep that came out to see the floors. On the other hand I have seen Congo offer a settlement to pacify HOs when there was really no problems. The floor wasn't perfectly flat, so the butted DuraCeramic ran off a bit(1/32") The HO complained, Congo gave HO $1000. When I meet at a job, with Congo, dealer and HO, I am always afraid(stomach ache afraid) that I will get railroaded and embarrassed since, like has been mentioned here before, there are no perfect jobs, and when no one wants to take responsibility they will all start pointing fingers. And, who was the last person to touch this floor? That'd be me. The good news is that I haven't gotten tagged with the blame for quite a few years, but the stomach ache is still there. Is it possible that the offer was made to pacify the HO(and the dealer) and Congo didn't really see a problem and a new one would probably do the same thing?

This post is a perfect example of why independant inspectors are needed, and should be utilized by not only the manufacturers, but even installers.

If you had an independent inspector at the jobsite he could inspect and tell everyone exactly why the job is failing. If ALL parties went in with an "open mind", as in if it is my fault I will take responsibility, those worries would be lessened in all parties stomachs.

Unfortunately retailers and manufacturers often utilize brokerage services who specilize in placing the blame elsewhere. If you as an installer have followed ALL proper installation practices, and can prove that, then you should have absolutely NO fear of the inspector looking at your installation.

You commented on the floor not being perfectly flat, my question is "was it within tolerance?" Do you know how many installers do not even know what tolerance to follow for a specific product?

Retailer/distributor reps/inspectors and such have no authority to change or interperet Congoleums specific warranty language. See the quote from Congo warranty.

"YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS

These limited warranties give you specific legal rights and you may also have other rights which vary from state to state, except for these other rights, the remedies provided in the above warranties state the limit of Congoleum Corporation's responsibility.

No representative, employee, or agent of Congoleum is authorized to modify or change the limited warranties as stated herein."

[TwoStar]

rgfloor said You commented on the floor not being perfectly flat, my question is "was it within tolerance?" Do you know how many installers do not even know what tolerance to follow for a specific product?

I hope my response to these questions doesn't lower anyone's opinion of me.

The floor in question was a normal floor that I wouldn't have guessed would have been outside of tolerable flatness just by looking at it. It was slightly, 1/8" over five feet in one area. otherwise it wasn't anything that I was worried about. When I explained that I would need to flatten the area, I was pressured to not charge for it. So I fixed it for nothing.

I find that explaining to HOs that there is any sort of prep is getting harder and harder. They are not being educated from step one that they will need prep. They have spent their budget on the flooring and accessories, whine about the installation price, and go ballistic about the need for plastic on concrete, floor patch costs and time, as well as the wait that is difficult to estimate when the original floor is still installed.

I do know the tolerances and if I were to put my foot down about what floors I will go over, or how much prep I will need to do, I would be deemed a whiner and trouble maker, by the stores, and be without at least half of the work I currently have on my schedule.
When I suggested moisture testing a few years back these were the three responses I got from my local stores:

1. You can't read moisture in concrete, rainy days are gonna be wet, dry days are gonna be dry.
2. The few times that there are gonna be problems are tolerable.
3. What's a moisture test?

This isn't a joke, it is the true responses I got.

I was told by each that there will be NO extra charges billed when I decide to test for moisture. It's all on me. It makes it hard to follow the specs and then look at the Congo rep when he shows up.

[rgfloor]

TwoStar said When I suggested moisture testing a few years back these were the three responses I got from my local stores: 1. You can't read moisture in concrete, rainy days are gonna be wet, dry days are gonna be dry. 2. The few times that there are gonna be problems are tolerable. 3. What's a moisture test? This isn't a joke, it is the true responses I got. I was told by each that there will be NO extra charges billed when I decide to test for moisture. It's all on me. It makes it hard to follow the specs and then look at the Congo rep when he shows up.

I would take the price sheet or contract you have with each store and insert a line that reads: "If no moisture testing is done due to retailer/customer not wanting to incur the cost, any resulting issues or failures are not the responsibilty of 2Star Installers!"

Then on each invoice I gave them I would have a notice saying:

"Due to retailer/consumer not wishing to incur costs of recommended moisture tests 2 Star Installation can not be responsible for any failures or concerns due to moisture issues."

Yes they might not be happy but in a short time it would be business as usual. Now, is that disclaimer legal? Probably not, but it would discourage most from ever making a claim.

As for the Congo rep, look him dead in the eye and say, "I offered to do any necessary testing, but due to cost the retailer/store decided to fly nekkid."

[Sean Moore]

yeah, what rgfloor said.

fact is, you can't make everything perfect due to time and budget restraints.

after awhile, you get all jaded and bitter. oh well.

[stullis]

Sean Moore said yeah, what rgfloor said. fact is, you can't make everything perfect due to time and budget restraints. after awhile, you get all jaded and bitter. oh well.

If you bid them correctly you can do far better than what is typically done.
Of course the problem is we have to compete with those who use the "time and budget restraint" excuse.

[stullis]

TwoStar said This was from the Congo rep that came out to see the floors. On the other hand I have seen Congo offer a settlement to pacify HOs when there was really no problems. The floor wasn't perfectly flat, so the butted DuraCeramic ran off a bit(1/32") The HO complained, Congo gave HO $1000.

I've got to ask why you couldn't make the floor look good? It's not that difficult to do.