commercial carpet install

[rgfloor]

The real issue with mixing patch on the floor is control, I did not see him measure anything, just dump some water in. Ardex, Webcrete, Mapaei spend tons of money figuring out just the right proportions of water to patch. Do we honestly think we can do better by "eyeballing" the ratio? Or how much water is absorbed into the floor right where we mixed the patch, now you have a wet spot and some dry areas. The idea "I have been doing it this way for 20-30 years" doesn't fly anymore. The new patch isn't your grampas's patch, things change, technology keeps marching on.

I'll start a new thread on technology.

[GoodHouse]

Rgfloor - your dead wrong about exact ratios for floor patch. From cementitious floor patch to tile thinsets, they rarely have precise ratios. Its typically an eye ball thing. You cant argue otherwise.

As far as the patch for this carpet job, its to feather out ridges and divots. Mask some subfloor inconsistencies. Its perfectly fine.

People are losing site of the fact that a typical commercial glue down job pays approx $.50 a square foot. Add a $1.00 a foot for base if your lucky. Once you do the math with 3 guys on a jobsite, your still not making money. If you dont take the job some one else will do it for less.

I am not commenting on the way this guy looks. He looks like a typical installer from the 80's and 90's. Long hair and the whole bit.

Peter:
-In regards to cheap carpet. The typical glue down is 20 oz level loop. This is cheap carpet. Its not made well. Good commercial carpet is nice, but 9 out of 10 commercial jobs are 20 oz level loop. If you don't concur call a local mohawk or shaw sales rep. Or talk to your local distributor. About the ratio of 20 oz level loop in comparison to the rest.
-Double Cutting: Double cutting is an acceptable and necessary installation method. Serpentine straight edge? This is the same exact method used in a different way. It also holds true that most double cut seems appear much better than row cut. I am not saying walk into every job and double cut seams... obviously row cut. But 20 oz level loop unitary backed carpet is best as a double cut seam method hands down.
-Rolling: Of course roll every glue down job. Carpet, vinyl, lvt, lvp, vct, etc. I'm sure this guy rolled his seams but if he did not, it will not be the "down fall" of this carpet installation.

Darren is being realistic when describing commercial carpet installs. I am just point out the same. Its easy to sit and criticise but much harder to put into action.

[Jim McClain]

GoodHouse said Rgfloor - your dead wrong about exact ratios for floor patch. From cementitious floor patch to tile thinsets, they rarely have precise ratios. Its typically an eye ball thing. You cant argue otherwise.

Well, you certainly CAN argue otherwise. Manufacturers publish mixing instructions for a reason. If there's a failure, a thorough inspection may just reveal the problem. If the installer did not mix the patching compound properly (or use the right trowel, didn't roll, etc.), then the end user has recourse they can follow up on.

People are losing site of the fact that a typical commercial glue down job pays approx $.50 a square foot. Add a $1.00 a foot for base if your lucky. Once you do the math with 3 guys on a jobsite, your still not making money. If you dont take the job some one else will do it for less.

Unfortunately, far too many installers have fallen victim to competing on price instead of selling their quality. But even if you can justify that in your own mind, prices vary across the country and around the world.

I put down a lot of 20oz. commercial carpet in my 35 years. When I quit 4 years ago, the basic charge was $6.00psy. I got 75.00 per hour for prep (incl. materials) and 1.50plf for rubber base. I didn't have any trouble making a good wage for my work.

-Double Cutting: Double cutting is an acceptable and necessary installation method.

Maybe in your mind, but certainly not on any set of installation instructions I'm aware of. I never was taught that method in any seminar or class I attended over the years. It's a shortcut, nothing more. If the job fails because of a bad seam, guess who has to pay the piper?

Let's not confuse your experiences or the description of these kinds of shortcuts as the "proper" and accepted way of doing things. It's only acceptable if you want to compromise your quality and the written instructions - and only then in your own mind. I'm not gonna sit here and demand you follow the standards and instructions. You can operate your business any way you see fit. But let's call it like it is: shortcuts and substandard work practices. No manufacturer of any of the products installed will call these methods acceptable.

Jim

[getoverit]

Well said Jim...

[Peter Kodner]

My facts are a bit outdated as I do not have the resources I did 12 years ago. At that time (12 years ago) my company regularly purchased just about every report and study on the industry available including several cross indexes on qualities being made and manufacturing plant and capabilities information. Being the technical guy in our operation, I was tasked with being the go to guy for this type of information and had a pretty extensive knowledge of who made what as well as how much of it.

At that time, "Main Street" commercial sales (this is loosely defined as retailer initiated. Think the display in the showroom used for your dentist or Dr. or accountant's office jobs. Generally 200 yards or less.) versus specified commercial (these are the projects with G.C, architects, mill reps and flooring contractors. Corporate, health care, institutional, hospitality and retail were the subcategories for this market.)) was about 30% main street to 70% specified commercial in yardage. The dollar value was considerably more skewed to specified, and was the largest profit center for mills (I won't even discuss profit on modular. Suffice it to say they make an excellent ROI on tiles.). Commercial was about 45% of the total market at that time.

Based on these figures, and I doubt there has been that significant overall change, it simply is inaccurate to state that most commercial carpet is low end. I obviously cannot dispute that these are the same percentages as what you experience as an installer. I was involved only in specified commercial and did virtually no low end work. Our individual circumstances do not change the raw data though.

I will make an effort to verify if these statistics are current and report them, and if I receive their permission, cite the sources.

This said, although the gents in the video certainly exist (fact), and are not that rare (my opinion), they certainly do not make up the majority of commercial installers. I also stand by my opinion they do far more disservice to the trade than benefit with posting of this type of video. Do you sincerely believe that a consumer, after watching their clip, will think you provide anything other than a low skilled commodity service? Was there anything about it that said "We are professionals" or "We are skilled tradesmen"?

I think Jim addressed some other comments very well.

[Darren Ramey]

People are losing site of the fact that a typical commercial glue down job pays approx $.50 a square foot. Add a $1.00 a foot for base if your lucky. Once you do the math with 3 guys on a jobsite, your still not making money. If you dont take the job some one else will do it for less. I put down a lot of 20oz. commercial carpet in my 35 years. When I quit 4 years ago, the basic charge was $6.00psy. I got 75.00 per hour for prep (incl. materials) and 1.50plf for rubber base. I didn't have any trouble making a good wage for my work.

$4.50 a yard, $6 a yard? The going rate in this town is $2.25, with the shop supplying the glue. I was making more than that 20 years ago. The price on direct glue has gone down over the last 10 years as more illegals show up. Can you make money at 2.25? Yeah, but you need to check your conscience at the door.

Most commercial customers aren't looking for works of art, they just want something on the floor to keep the noise and dust down. Their #1 concern is cost. Who can blame them? Shops need to be competitive to get the jobs, installers need to be competitive to get the shops and from there it is a race to the bottom. In the end the commercial customer gets an adequate (in most cases) job which is all they wanted in the first place.

[Barry Carlton]

This is just an observation. No stones are being cast.

Maybe of an installer justifies improper procedures from prep through and including seaming and rolling, that is why he might be only installing the cheaper quality carpets....less liability for the retailer/GC for a failure. Maybe the confidence is not there in his skills in working with the better/higher end materials.

Just a thought.

[Dobby Tappet]

People are losing site of the fact that a typical commercial glue down job pays approx $.50 a square foot. Add a $1.00 a foot for base if your lucky. Once you do the math with 3 guys on a jobsite, your still not making money. If you dont take the job some one else will do it for less.

Clearly, according to the conventional logic of the day, the workmanship in this video is perfectly acceptable. A-OK!! Listen, not everybody can afford to have carpet installed properly according to specifications, guidelines and all that stuff.

Did anyone notice the wedding ring on the installers finger? This guy most likely has a family depending on him and in these lean economic times a person has to do what it takes to get the job and keep food on the table. At least the pieces were not quarter turned, but, even if they had been, it would be OK because with that carpet, it really wouldn't look that bad.

The bottom line is; here's the job, here's what it pays, if you can't make it work for that price somebody else will and when you have a family depending on you, a person has to do what ever they can to keep food on the table. Right? Haven't many here been defending this very position?

It's the same logic as quarter turning a frieze carpet to meet a price point, double cutting seams or double cutting corners. Once you start down the slope there is no stopping. We can attempt to fool ourselves with excuses on why these installation practices are acceptable on one job and not the next. Or say "it's what the customer wanted". But, the only person we fool is ourselves. Quality workmanship is a cornerstone of professionalism and it's application is not selective. Either we do quality work or we do not! It's really that simple.

There is no doubt in my mind, the installers in this video are proud of it's contents. There is also no doubt in my mind that the installation shown in this video would be perfectly acceptable to a vast majority of retailers, builders and property managers. The only downside to this type of workmanship, which was the entire premise of my objections to quarter turning of carpet is; by the workmanship portrayed in this video, there is no doubt these installers are destined to a career where jobs will be won or lost based on price. No doubt they will spend every year having the hopes of any potential profit being squeezed out by the low bid and being under bid by the next installer who will work for less. Their years of experience and potential talent will never be valued monetarily because the quality of the work they deliver and their identity in the market place will always be one based on price.

The thing about all this is, there is tremendous money to be made in the flooring trades and it will never be realized by the low bidder. No matter how hard we work, we simply can not discount our way to success. Even so, there seems to be no shortage of people in this trade fighting and pushing their way in a rush towards the bottom continually defending their actions by arguing "it's what the customer wants or the customers all want a lower price". When in actuality, the customers are only seeking what we, as an industry, have relentlessly advertised.

A few years back I had a retailer complain to me about how the only thing customers were interested in was a lower price. That weekend, I saw his ad in the newspaper with the tag lines 'no one beats our prices' and 'lowest prices on flooring starting at .49 cents a square foot'. This retailer is catching exactly what he was baiting for. What a surprise! BTW: he would hire the installers in the video in a heart beat and work them seven days a week!!! Question is, how busy are we ?


With kindest regards,

Dobby

[Jim McClain]

Dobby Tappet said ... Quality workmanship is a cornerstone of professionalism and it's application is not selective. Either we do quality work or we do not! It's really that simple.

Unfortunately it is NOT that simple. The mere fact that "quality workmanship" is a subjective term that is defined not by just the installer, but the retailer and the consumer, makes it somewhat less than simple.

... "it's what the customer wants or the customers all want a lower price". When in actuality, the customers are only seeking what we, as an industry, have relentlessly advertised. A few years back I had a retailer complain to me about how the only thing customers were interested in was a lower price.

It's not just we as an industry, David. It's a problem all businesses have been struggling against for many years. I may be wrong, but I believe we are all battling Goliaths that have brainwashed the consumer with catch phrases like, "Wholesale to Public," "Warehouse Prices," "Guaranteed Lowest Price," "No Price Lower" and "Unbeatable Prices." Some of the highest trafficked websites are best-price.com, pricegrabber.com, pricewatch.com, bizrate.com, priceline.com, pricescan.com and NexTag.com - all in search of the cheapest price we have to pay for what we want. In relation to installation labor, the companies that use free labor or $99.00 whole house installation advertising strategies reinforce the consumer belief that installation is pretty much the same, no matter who does it, and the only difference to be concerned about is price.

I fought that mentality for years. I feel I managed to succeed and had confidence in my ability to provide quality workmanship at a better than average price. And I quarter-turned a frieze once in a while. I didn't always use a measuring cup to mix patch. Didn't have a 4-hole applicator for the base gun. But these were the exceptions, not the rules, and I am proud of the work I did. My customers, who I still see fairly regularly in my community, continue to praise the work I did.

The way I see it, there are at least 3 different philosophies here:

• Always compromise to get the work, whether that be workmanship or price or both.
• Never compromise workmanship or price - keep both at the highest levels.
• Primary goal is a satisfied customer, which may require some compromise.

I take the last stance. My priorities are in this order:

1. Meet the customer's needs (don't confuse this with "wants").
2. Provide the highest quality materials the customer can afford to meet those needs.
3. Provide a quality installation that will meet or surpass the needs of the customer.

Things might be different if I lived in a part of the country where I could stay busy and put food on my table by doing only perfect installations. I don't. I live in a part of the country were the median income is about 36,000.00 annually and more than 15% live in poverty. Population of the county is around 30,000, but only 20,000 are full-time residents. So, the selection process when it comes to what flooring jobs to take, isn't the same everywhere.

My point is that there are no absolutes.

Jim

[rusty baker]

Jim, you are exactly rght. I live in a very poor area, too. The people here, buy what they can afford. Not always what would be best. If I installed only what people should buy, refused to install used and refused to ever 1/4 turn. I would not have worked much over the last several years. Do I sometimes install things that are destined to fail? Yes I do. I have installed many times on sagging floors, floors with rotten places, over old pad, but I always do my part right. Everyone deserves a quality installation, even in substandard conditions. I always explain to the customer that their floor should be fixed but don't refuse to install when they can't afford to fix it.

[Barry Carlton]

Dobby Tappet said Clearly, according to the conventional logic of the day, the workmanship in this video is perfectly acceptable. A-OK!! Listen, not everybody can afford to have carpet installed properly according to specifications, guidelines and all that stuff. Did anyone notice the wedding ring on the installers finger? This guy most likely has a family depending on him and in these lean economic times a person has to do what it takes to get the job and keep food on the table. At least the pieces were not quarter turned, but, even if they had been, it would be OK because with that carpet, it really wouldn't look that bad. The bottom line is; here's the job, here's what it pays, if you can't make it work for that price somebody else will and when you have a family depending on you, a person has to do what ever they can to keep food on the table. Right? Haven't many here been defending this very position? It's the same logic as quarter turning a frieze carpet to meet a price point, double cutting seams or double cutting corners. Once you start down the slope there is no stopping. We can attempt to fool ourselves with excuses on why these installation practices are acceptable on one job and not the next. Or say "it's what the customer wanted". But, the only person we fool is ourselves. Quality workmanship is a cornerstone of professionalism and it's application is not selective. Either we do quality work or we do not! It's really that simple. There is no doubt in my mind, the installers in this video are proud of it's contents. There is also no doubt in my mind that the installation shown in this video would be perfectly acceptable to a vast majority of retailers, builders and property managers. The only downside to this type of workmanship, which was the entire premise of my objections to quarter turning of carpet is; by the workmanship portrayed in this video, there is no doubt these installers are destined to a career where jobs will be won or lost based on price. No doubt they will spend every year having the hopes of any potential profit being squeezed out by the low bid and being under bid by the next installer who will work for less. Their years of experience and potential talent will never be valued monetarily because the quality of the work they deliver and their identity in the market place will always be one based on price. The thing about all this is, there is tremendous money to be made in the flooring trades and it will never be realized by the low bidder. No matter how hard we work, we simply can not discount our way to success. Even so, there seems to be no shortage of people in this trade fighting and pushing their way in a rush towards the bottom continually defending their actions by arguing "it's what the customer wants or the customers all want a lower price". When in actuality, the customers are only seeking what we, as an industry, have relentlessly advertised. A few years back I had a retailer complain to me about how the only thing customers were interested in was a lower price. That weekend, I saw his ad in the newspaper with the tag lines 'no one beats our prices' and 'lowest prices on flooring starting at .49 cents a square foot'. This retailer is catching exactly what he was baiting for. What a surprise! BTW: he would hire the installers in the video in a heart beat and work them seven days a week!!! Question is, how busy are we ? With kindest regards, Dobby

I really love your comments. So full of thought and insight. I am hanging on the last statement that I highlight in red.
Is there more to follow? It seems to be an unfinished thought.

[Chris Mha]

[QUOTE=GoodHouse;90154]Rgfloor - your dead wrong about exact ratios for floor patch. From cementitious floor patch to tile thinsets, they rarely have precise ratios. Its typically an eye ball thing. You cant argue otherwise.

Call tech support at Ardex and tell them this. I'd be willing to bet they will argue the point with you. I have spoken with them on this very issue. They have a mix ratio that when mixed correctly gives the product maximum holding strength and maximum psi. I'd be willing to bet that Mapei and the others would argue this point with you too if a failure occurs.

I'm not willing to take the chance of a failure. It is not that big of a deal to mix it to the correct ratio.

If I'm not mistaken this issue was brought up before on TFP.

[Barry Carlton]

[QUOTE=Chris Mha;90240]

GoodHouse said Rgfloor - your dead wrong about exact ratios for floor patch. From cementitious floor patch to tile thinsets, they rarely have precise ratios. Its typically an eye ball thing. You cant argue otherwise. Call tech support at Ardex and tell them this. I'd be willing to bet they will argue the point with you. I have spoken with them on this very issue. They have a mix ratio that when mixed correctly gives the product maximum holding strength and maximum psi. I'd be willing to bet that Mapei and the others would argue this point with you too if a failure occurs. I'm not willing to take the chance of a failure. It is not that big of a deal to mix it to the correct ratio. If I'm not mistaken this issue was brought up before on TFP.

I think it was one of the topics Demonseed also did not agree on. And you are right the ratios and mixing speeds and times are there for a very valid reason. And it is not hard to carry and use a measuring cup and bucket. I have done it for over 25 years.

[stullis]

Patch way over-watered in the video. Amateur tools and trowels used and poor methods over all from layout to actual implementation.
But they got the check.

Mixing the patch according to the manufacturers recomendations... I really wonder how many of you have actually tried that? Good luck most of the time.

Never double cut carpet? LMAO you don't do much commercial work either.

Ever hear of a glass cutter? How about a serpentine edge? Double cutting is as good of a method as trace cutting and I would argue actually better.
Now with that said, is it the preferred method? Sometimes, think C&A, but not usually.

[kylenelson]

I'm amazed at the amount of people that are okay with double cutting. I've never even considered this as an acceptable way of seaming carpet. Even trace cutting is pushing the line IMO. At least one side is cut properly in that case.