A $64 Question

[Bill Watson]

Wasn't really sure what section to post this under, but figured that T would fix it if needed.
In the short time I have been reading this forum, it has become very evident to me that this is a premier group of industry professionals who can be counted on to offer straight, honest and well thought-out advice. (No, really, it's true!) Whether it concerns carpet, resilient, wood, tile, or laminate, someone is always ready, willing and able to help. This place is truely a resource gold mine!

Have I kissed up enough yet? I'll do more if needed!

Now for the Sixty-four dollar question: How would you "sell" training?

My current job with one of the major laminate flooring manufacturers as a "Regional Technical Manager", is a relatively new experience for me. A very significant part of that job is "Selling" training, but sad to report that it's not really going all that well.

I must say right here that the time I get to spend actually training with, and certifying other Installers is absolutely THE BEST! I can't even begin to describe the feeling I get when an Installer shakes my hand and says "I learned something today"! To say it's rewarding is a gross understatement.

The tough part for me is "selling the training". Convincing Installers/Retailers/Managers that training really is worthwhile and an investment in their own future. Time and time again, I hear the same "excuses". "It's too expensive, I don't have time, My guys already know how to do it, I can't take the time away from work.
The reluctance is quite puzzeling.
From the start of my own career, (I had no idea in 1969 that it would turn into a "career" when I told a friends dad that I would help out for a few weeks on some apartments he was doing), I have been very aware of the importance of gaining knowledge and training whenever and wherever I could. I have an album full of certificates, and like most of you, have spent thousands of dollars on my education.
I regret none of the money spent, and felt like I came away from every class, clinic, seminar and course with something I could use to make my jobs and my life better.

Not looking for a magic bullet here, I understand that there are none. (but let me know if you have one OK?), Just looking for your perspective and insight... or how you might respond to the "excuses".
Respectfully

[rgfloor]

Bill, that is a $64,000,000 question. All any of us can do is continue preaching the value of training. You can show the horse the water trough but you can't make him drink. All too often manufacturers will have an installation problem and the sales rep., in the interest of keeping a customer will cover for bad workmanship. Until sales and manufacturing step up and say we will cover our problems, you cover yours there is very little impetus for stepped up training.

[tony lamar]

I believe that if the retailer runs subs through his shop, he could and should be an integral part of that process. And really, it seems simple. Reward those who are interested in furthering their knowledge and abilities with better pay. The lower paid who are truly concerned can then see a motivation to advance. The slobs and know it alls, will complain and fall by the wayside. That's my theory, anyhow.

[Al Gladden]

last year i got CFI certified and koolglide certified..the only 2 certs i have. i was trained by my father who has 40 years experience.. so i know everything? wrong! you would not believe the stuff i have learned from CFI!....with the new tools coming out, new backings... new materials, it really pays to keep educating yourself... before 2007 is out i plan on getting a hard surface cert..whether it be dupont laminate, pergo, or armstrong.. one of these schools will be seeing me before the year is out...jerry miller and fred chastain really opened my eyes to how much i did not know.

[Steve Olson]

Well, for myself, and crew, it's a little easier. If its a service or product we offer, just. A) Be within an hours drive. B) Tell us what time to be there.

[Curt Durand]

Bill, It has always been a problem getting the horses to drink. I worked for Congoleum back in the early 80's and working with a past large distributor, Lowy Enterprises, we filled a twice a year free 3 day installation school most of the time. Every one who attended commented on how great the school was. The school worked well. On the other hand, the "one night seminars", never were well attended. Free dinner, beer, raffle prizes could barely draw a sprinkle of installers. 2500 accounts and sometimes only a dozen installers. New products back then were the engineered products such as: Kahr's, Witex, Hartco Pattern Plus. New products with new installation requirements. Many dealers found that carpenters were better installers then the carpet and sheet vinyl installers. The carpenters at least took the time to read the instructions. Never found a good solution for getting better attendance.

[stullis]

The biggest problem is getting the word out to the installers. Market the training to installers instead of the retailers.

The dealers don't want installers to learn more because:
1) They would actually have to start paying more to have the material installed.

2) They might actually have to start acting like the employers that they are instead of playing the "sub contractor" game.

3) Materials wouldn't get installed as "greasy" fast when done correctly thus slowing down installations. Less volume means less money to retailers and manufacturers.

[Al Gladden]

scott, you hit the nail on the head.

[Peter Kodner]

Not a radical idea but one the flooring business has stayed away from like poison: (please forgive the broad strokes I am painting this canvas with. Most who read this will not fall into the category I'm describing, but it seems, to me, to be all to prevalent)

The basic reality is people will not change unless they have a financial incentive to do so. Retailers would prefer to keep installers in the dark as they mistaken seem to think undereducated (I'm not talking schooling here, but installation education) installers are easier to control and keep. Retailers also mistakenly seem to think it is cost prohibitive and they will not see a ROT (return on investment). Installer are frequently not earning what they deserve so they will not take time for jobs to attend and also know they can get by with minimal (at best) quality.

Over the years (and I was first hearing of this in the 70s) manufacturers have tried to mandate "certified" installers must put their products in but have never put any teeth into the requirements. Some of the niche people have had success, but in general, the industry has always been too price (as in low) driven and would not say "No" to volume accounts that wouldn't comply (Can you imagine manufacturers saying "We won't sell to you" to the boxes when they refuse to agree their subs will be properly trained?).

With the dollar amounts I hear bandied about on claim expense, one would assume it costs a manufacturer far less to have a customer with zero or near zero claims expenses. Why is there no pricing incentive for these people that run their businesses better? If it costs you less to work with one account versus another, why not share that savings with these companies? Tie installation training in to the qualifying for better product pricing and you will see better caliber installers, but all of the parties involved must see an economic benefit to it.

I had hoped for many year CFI would create this atmosphere but, IMHO, it hasn't done so yet. I don't know if any independent organization can accomplish this. An industry segment or a large manufacturer will need to take the lead to make quality the norm.

[Roland Thompson]

I have been very succesfull going to the retailers and proving to them the value of the trainings we put on. We fill meetings after meetings with installers and sales people. Know the retailers come after us for the trainings. Just two weeks ago Jim Boyds Flooring America called and said to me that they hired two new people and when is our next meeting to start getting them involed.
I have found out that most " not all " will pay more for quality work but us as installers need to show them why we are diffrent then the other guys .
agaive them the wow factor.

Roland

[TFP Admin]

I also don't know the answer to the problem, unless it is just spreading the word about the value and benefits of training. This site can do its part in that regard. Just the discussion alone helps. What any one of you are welcome to do too, is write an article about training - your experiences, the scope of a particular course, how the industry might encourage and support it, why the retailer should see it as an excellent investment, the benefits to the trainee (not all training is for the installer) and how to market that training to the consumer as added value to the product. Any one or more of those topics, or one of your own would be welcome as a submitted article. And we can have more than one article on training.

We also have a calendar that you can use to post any training you think people should be aware of. You can also send your training schedules to me and I will add them to the Training menu in the header of all our pages. I've been lax in that area, but I can see that it should have a higher priority and I will do my best.

Thanks for the great topic, Bill. I did move it here to the Flooring Potpourri forum, even though it's probably more relevant to the Training and Organizations forum. I think it'll get more attention here for now and I'll move it to the Training forum later on. I hope the discussion continues.

T

[kwfloors]

[QUOTE=

With the dollar amounts I hear bandied about on claim expense, one would assume it costs a manufacturer far less to have a customer with zero or near zero claims expenses. Why is there no pricing incentive for these people that run their businesses better? If it costs you less to work with one account versus another, why not share that savings with these companies? Tie installation training in to the qualifying for better product pricing and you will see better caliber installers, but all of the parties involved must see an economic benefit to it.
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The zero claims stores are off setting the high claim stores so that is why they don't share the savings. With the companies we deal with, we have the lowest claims and yet we have to scream to get them to back up their product for a manufacturing defect or problem. Also its hard to convince a salesman to go to a meeting when he or she is perfectly content with the way they are doing things.

[Lo Down]

stullis said The biggest problem is getting the word out to the installers. Market the training to installers instead of the retailers. The dealers don't want installers to learn more because: 1) They would actually have to start paying more to have the material installed. 2) They might actually have to start acting like the employers that they are instead of playing the "sub contractor" game. 3) Materials wouldn't get installed as "greasy" fast when done correctly thus slowing down installations. Less volume means less money to retailers and manufacturers.

You have it down.......... speed makes a customer happy...... initially.
The shop I do most of my work through has paid out to me about $2500 for the first 6 months of this year.......... just for fixin' stuff and making the customer happy.
So far, not a lot of cost for materials..... most was just labor........... still, there must be another $1500 in materials and other costs.

.... so...... they are out around $4000 in 6 months.
.......... in my eyes, I could have done all of these jobs.
.......... done all of them correctly
.......... done all of them at a higher initial installation cost.
.......... cost them exactly the same amount in the end. A wash.
(meaning that personally, I made an additional $4,000...... and they absorbed the additional cost)

in the end..... was anything gained by their monitary loss by my higher charges?........... I mean......the actual monetary cost to the store would a virtual wash compared to me playing "Mr. Fix it..... AFTER the fact.

If the end cost was the same .......would the stores reputation be better with me playing "Mr. Fix it"
............ or would the stores reputation be better if the job was done correctly the first time around?

............ it's the exact same end cost in the end.
........ but what about the store's reputation being damaged by having to send a different guy ( that would be me ), to fix stuff later.
IE: complaints.
The damage by compaints will hurt future sales................. hey.... people talk! It can be good or bad.

[kwfloors]

The box store that opened here had to fix or replace every job they did the first year they opened. You would think they would be more into certification and training as they sure do want to train the customer on the weekends with demos.

[Jerry Thomas]

Many good points have been offered so far. Bottom line is a good, trained installer is going to be more productive and have few if any callback issues. That's the point that needs to sink in here.... can the retailer afford not to utilize any training classes?