Age of Installers

[rusty baker]

Sounds like, good ole shine {190 proof }

[Bud Cline]

I'll tell ya how I know about the torches.

Many years ago I was working nights bar tending at a country music honky tonk. Next door was a classy supper club with a "music room" and they booked all types of entertainment.

One Saturday night into the honky tonk walks this muscular dark-skinned dude. The guy was wearing a grass skirt and had flowers wrapped around his biceps and he was wearing several leis around his neck and no shirt. The guy was a specimen.

Mind you this was a "cowboy honky tonk" right out of Urban Cowboy. The guy walks up to me and asked if we had any grain alcohol. Well of course we did. In the meantime the cowboys were beginning to gather near the bar in preparation to kick this guys ass. I could barely converse with the guy above all the cat-calls and wolf whistles. I sold him two quarts of mash and off he went while he was still in one piece. Never had anybody buy that stuff by the full quart before.

Later that night when things slowed I went next store for a drink and there was a half dozen Hawaiian dancers twirling torches and jumpin' around to some recorded drum sounds. Fairly entertaining actually. I later spoke with the guy that had bought the mash and he told me that they must have left their stock of torch fuel at their last gig and without it they couldn't do their show. That was when I learned that grain alcohol had many uses other than rot-gut.

[JasonH]

Originally Posted by Nick Arrera I use to pay green helpers $150.00 a day .. they were 30 yrs old and still living at home .. Could not depend on them showing up for work .. A lot of them said the work was to tough for the money .. and yes the guys are scruffy looking , and just don't give a damn about learning ..

150$ dollar a day I'd be happy to work for, I'm 2 years apprenticeing under my dad and I was at 16$ an hour and he just dropped me to 15$ an hour cause he said he wasn't maken enough.

With the amount of BS I put up with from him I'm ready to knock him on his ass. 30+ year experiance 'old school' make it hurt way of teachen is his way, not the right way if you ask me or anyone else who've seen us work.

Worken with family doesn't work anyways. I'll be happy come Augest when I start up with the floor layers union in New west (British Columbia, Canada) and start my INSTALL certificate / Red seal trade Certificate program.

[JasonH]

Originally Posted by Demonseed I am 38, I got into the trade because my dad was in it and I was the son. What I see alot, is people hire guys as helpers, start to teach them the basics, and after 6 months the helper has a few tools, can do small easy jobs and decides to do his own work. Finding reliable people that are willing to learn and put in the time is not easy. I also know guys that do find reliable people, then for the above reasons, do not want to teach them too much. Their reasoning is, I got a reliable helper, if I teach them how to be a good mechanic, show them all of the tricks of the trade, in 2 years (or so) they will go off on their own, or they will have to pay them alot more. The long and short of it is anyone can say they are a carpet/flooring installer, whereas a plumber or electrician needs to be licensed by the State. Younger people that want to go into a trade, have heard the dream, plumbers and electricians live in Fancy houses, drive expensive cars, and they do easy work, get alot of breaks and live the good life. Carpet Installers are always late, drive beat up Vans, have no benefits, and have their knees fall off. Try to do a search online, about what the average Carpet/floor Installer makes, and compare it to an electrician or plumber. I know a guy who is in his late 30's, being forced to make a career change over the next year or so, and was talking about joining the union as an electricians apprentice for $13 an hour for the next 3 years to get his certification/license. As the conversation progressed, prevailing wage came up, and I told him for Carpet Installers in NJ it is over $48 an hour, that put a pause in his thought train. The weird thing is, for as long as I have been in this trade, I could not even tell someone how to join the Union.

The bolded area I agree with but it's only fair. Sure a helper is only gonna stay to make some quick cash for awhile but say in my position an apprentice who wants to learn but gets shafted by these 'assholes' in my shoes (journeymen who like to keep us 'dumb') lead us on promising something they will never backup, gets under my skin.

[JasonH]

Originally Posted by Darol Wester My brother and I are the oldest installers in the county in our middle to late 50's. The rest are in their 20's and 30's. A good age for the physical demand of this trade. When we started in our early twenties, all the rest here were in their 50's and 60's. I do see the next generation coming down the pipe. As far as respect......... I do believe we are at least above the roofers.

Sorry for the many posts, picken these up as I go

I've come to many commercial sites where it's new construction with my dad's old chevy 20 van thats a rust bucket and us come out (I atleast keep clean shaven, hair cut, and good clothes) and agree 100% to that thought, until I'm the one breaking the carpet and hauling it up 3 flights of stairs 30 times with each roll being 30 footer's.

Than the praise of hard work and respect that I manage to do it start to show.. hah.

[barrycarlton]

You sound a little bitter. But smart enough to learn from your teachers. Even if it is what/how not to do a job or treat a person.

barry

[JasonH]

Originally Posted by barrycarlton You sound a little bitter. But smart enough to learn from your teachers. Even if it is what/how not to do a job or treat a person. barry

Very bitter about working with my father, he is not someone I wish to learn from but after putting in my resume for installers for 14 different local shops and only have 2 call back with nothing more happening I'm stuck.

In augest I get my license (22 but no license atm, yea yea -_-) and I'll pickup a beater to begin my 'official' apprenticeship.

[Kman]

Jason, you sound a lot like my son. He's almost 19, and he wants to be paid as much as me, although I've been at it for 11 years and he's been working for two.

I know it's tough doing all the grunt work while not making as much as your father, but I'll bet he knows quite a bit more than you give him credit for. Some people are good at teaching, some are good at showing. I'm better at showing somebody how to do something, and I learn better when it's shown to me.

Instead of being a little bitter, try to meet your father halfway. Show a true interest in learning and steer clear of topics of conversation that tend to end in an argument. You truly may not be able to work with your father for an extended period of time, but I'll bet you can learn a lot from him in the time you're with him. I know I wish I had paid better attention to my father when he was laying brick. I probably still wouldn't be a bricklayer, but I would know how, and there's probably a lot of other things I could have learned from him.

Sadly, he was taken from us when I was 25, and I didn't realize how much I missed out on until I had my own sons. Now I look at them and see myself when I was 18 or 19 and knew everything. All he wanted was to teach me, but I was too "smart" to learn.

You won't always get along with him, and you'll have enough genuine disagreements without dreading every minute you'll spend with him. Trust me, if you don't understand what I'm telling you, you'll understand it in a few years.

I hope he didn't give you any lectures today, since you've gotten one from me now.

Good luck.

[Nick Arrera]

Ditto Kman .. We all went through the same thing getting into the business .. When i was in the business for 5 years i thought i knew it all , till i was in for 10 , and realized i didn't know squat at 5 .. Still learning after 39 yrs ..

[Jon Scanlan]

Originally Posted by Nick Arrera Ditto Kman .. We all went through the same thing getting into the business .. When i was in the business for 5 years i thought i knew it all , till i was in for 10 , and realized i didn't know squat at 5 .. Still learning after 39 yrs ..

Try after 41 years

[JasonH]

Originally Posted by Kman Jason, you sound a lot like my son. He's almost 19, and he wants to be paid as much as me, although I've been at it for 11 years and he's been working for two. I know it's tough doing all the grunt work while not making as much as your father, but I'll bet he knows quite a bit more than you give him credit for. Some people are good at teaching, some are good at showing. I'm better at showing somebody how to do something, and I learn better when it's shown to me. Instead of being a little bitter, try to meet your father halfway. Show a true interest in learning and steer clear of topics of conversation that tend to end in an argument. You truly may not be able to work with your father for an extended period of time, but I'll bet you can learn a lot from him in the time you're with him. I know I wish I had paid better attention to my father when he was laying brick. I probably still wouldn't be a bricklayer, but I would know how, and there's probably a lot of other things I could have learned from him. Sadly, he was taken from us when I was 25, and I didn't realize how much I missed out on until I had my own sons. Now I look at them and see myself when I was 18 or 19 and knew everything. All he wanted was to teach me, but I was too "smart" to learn. You won't always get along with him, and you'll have enough genuine disagreements without dreading every minute you'll spend with him. Trust me, if you don't understand what I'm telling you, you'll understand it in a few years. I hope he didn't give you any lectures today, since you've gotten one from me now. Good luck.

Hey Kman, I can totally understand not maken as much as he has from the get go, it wouldn't be right if I did. The problem in the first bit you say is that I don't quite think he understands how to show or teach someone. He says he was a helper for 10 years. No one should ever be a helper that long in any trade I don't care what for unless they are worken for the wrong people being tought the wrong way. And I'm afraid when it comes to anything but prep he's showing me the wrong way.

He won't explain things properly, guess it's a verbal commnucation barrier or something he has. The old can't fully explain what I'm thinking deal and it translates when he goes to tell me something. He'll change his mind 3 or 4 times. And for someone new that can really throw a wrench into your day specially when it's every day.

And I've tried finding someone else to work for, I guess it's lack of work atm cause I can't get a hold of anyone taken on new apprentices unless I wanna travel 3 hours a day to and from work. And with us canadians paying $5.35 a gallon (or $1.48 a litre) of gas it makes it hardly worth it for a guy like me who's now back to maken 15$ an hour.

In the end, it's more or less the father and son that don't get along but still work together. Majority of the time the father treats the son as if he can pay him 10$ an hour for the rest of his life and talk down to him, which happens a lot. And customers have complained numerious times about it. Not to mention other installers and salesman.