Actual time vrs Scheduled time Catch22

[JustWood]

Just days after I made the following comment on another board, we had just such an issue come up. Murphy's Law I guess.
Job was less then 400 sf, two basically square rooms, no rip out or furn. move, no trim afterwards, and the wood was 3 1/4 wide. For whatever reason, the store owner scheduled it for two days. We did it in six hours. Customer said they were happy, everything looked great, but next day they called the store wanting a credit on their bill since the job must have been easier then estimated . Of course they didn't get a credit, but WTF?

Is there any other job out there where people think the better you do it the less you should get paid? Just venting a little here, but would like to see a good discussion of what you all think of this time issue?

Homeowner wrote: I suspect the job was done in a very rushed manner as they completed in a morning what was listed as a 2 day job. Don't be so fast to jump to that conclusion. There are legitimate reasons for that to happen. One store we work for, the owner does the estimate/measure and schedules the job after checking with us for available dates. Not having seen the site ourselves, we can only estimate the time it'll take based on his description. If there's any question at all I always tell him to add an extra day just in case an unforeseen situation arises (a problem with the subfloor after ripping out existing floor for example) so that the homeowner will have that next day available if necessary. Also, there have been times when he's scheduled a job for two days automatically because in his mind, that's how long it would take if he were doing it. But then we get there and see piece o' cake, this is a one dayer. That actually leaves us in an awkward spot. We're not going to dawdle and purposefully draw the job out just so the homeowner thinks they are getting more of their money's worth of labor, but on the other hand, we fear the exact reaction that you have described - that if we don't twiddle our thumbs and make the job extend to the time allotted for it, that the homeowner will think we "rushed" it. We've had jobs that only take a few hours and the homeowners are always suprised, they think they paid X amount for labor they should see you sweat it out longer. But that's why they hired a professional - to get the job done in a timely manner (and done right). It's a catch22 in this trade, I guess. In your case, your installers may have rushed it, don't know. Just wanted to point out to the general public that scheduled time vrs actual time often doesn't mean a hill o' beans.

[Kman]

That's why I always list the actual labor, whatever it happens to be, (install ceramic, install wood floor, etc.) then the square footage, then the price per square foot, then the total. I tell them that I think it'll take X amount of days, but it doesn't really matter whether it takes me one day or four, or whatever, because they're paying me by the square foot, period.

I do have some jobs that I do by the hour, but I tell them up front what the rate is, and that I can give them an estimate if they want, but I can't give them an exact price til it's finished, or at least close to being finished. Those jobs are few and far between.

The problem you've got, actually two problems, is that you've got someone else estimating the times and possibly not listing what the labor is like I've done above. The other problem, in this case, is you've got a customer who thinks the charge is based on the amount of time you spend there instead of on the amount of work done. If it was actually a two day job, but you brought in some extra help and got it done in one day, would they still have wanted to pay you less money? Even though you would also have the expense of the extra help? Or if you were really slow and took three days to do the job, would they expect to pay you extra?

Can't please some people.

[Floorguy]

He tells them 2 days, to justify what he is charging for labor. Then when your in and out quicker then he said, they feel ripped off.

Another client that will not be coming back, and they will spread the cancer like wild fire to all that want to listen.

[Bill Watson]

Then there is the other side of the coin.
The people who will complain that the 1000 sf job will take more than a day to do.
"Well the salesperson said it would take just one day". Including move furniture & appliances, tear out, prep, install, cut doors, feed the dog (OK maybe not that, but you know how it goes).
I know... many have taken a day off from work... but still, get real!
I have had more than a couple ask for compensation for an extra day's missed work.

[The Carpetologist]

Bill Watson said Then there is the other side of the coin. The people who will complain that the 1000 sf job will take more than a day to do. "Well the salesperson said it would take just one day". Including move furniture & appliances, tear out, prep, install, cut doors, feed the dog (OK maybe not that, but you know how it goes). I know... many have taken a day off from work... but still, get real! I have had more than a couple ask for compensation for an extra day's missed work.

I see this more often then the other...
The sales person will see all 150 yd jobs the same....
Add occupied, take up, redoing the strip, stairs with appolstry, hard carpet to install....
Now the job is going to take 2 or 3 days instead of 1 and the customers start yelling for compensation! You take the time to do it right and the customer had it done last time (carpet is all wrinkled) by a large crew in one day with cheep carpet.

I tell them they should have saved his number!

[Demonseed]

If you get done with a job too fast, say we figured we would go the extra mile to not inconvenience you, if the job takes too long, you say, we took the extra time to make sure it was done right.

I have a ton of 'canned' responses, the crew they initially planned on sending is very slow and inefficient, or they are very fast and careless. This normally would be a two day job, but my schedule allowed me to devote an extra person to complete it sooner, etc etc.

My overall value, is, I just stay as vague as possible without throwing anyone under the bus. Communication is a key factor in every aspect of what we do, but you have to be able to think for yourself. In your case, tell the customer you did plan it as a two day job, but decided to stay and put off the start of another job to make sure you could get their job done in one day instead of two.

[strip buster]

how bout you just say cash up front and where is the beer. what no beer and no money don't wake me till10 that's when i perform at my max..... one more plz thku. now about that bill and the beer, well the beer first...... cheers. BOYS SHE PAID LETS GO TO THE BAR.

[JustWood]

Kman said That's why I always list the actual labor, whatever it happens to be, (install ceramic, install wood floor, etc.) then the square footage, then the price per square foot, then the total.

Same here. I know a lot of people prefer giving a blanket estimate but I'm a firm believer in listing & pricing it all out from them separately. We are usually very good at estimating time, too, down to the hour.

But, as you said, when doing a job thru someone else, you can't control everything. With this particular store, though, he does itemize the invoice for the customer (although no prices on our copy, lol). As for time, our working relationship is still relatively new so he's still trying to get a feel for our pace, we have surprised him more than once in getting things done sooner than he thought we could.
I imagine as we get more used to each other these big time differences will happen less and less, I just hope it doesn't develop into everything being under scheduled instead, as Carpetoligist described.

[JustWood]

Floorguy said He tells them 2 days, to justify what he is charging for labor. Then when your in and out quicker then he said, they feel ripped off. Another client that will not be coming back, and they will spread the cancer like wild fire to all that want to listen.

So what would you do? Waste your time by drawing the job out, or get in and get it done at your normal pace?

[JustWood]

Bill Watson said I have had more than a couple ask for compensation for an extra day's missed work.

Wow. We've had under-scheduled jobs before, but never encountered THAT.

[JustWood]

Demonseed said My overall value, is, I just stay as vague as possible without throwing anyone under the bus.

I'd like to throw the customer under the bus sometimes. Like the ones who know you're coming to do their kitchen but haven't so much as cleared the breakfast dishes from the table yet. How long did you want us to be here?

[Floorguy]

JustWood said So what would you do? Waste your time by drawing the job out, or get in and get it done at your normal pace?

I would do what I always do, as it is my business to make a profit and not argue with someone else selling my services as theirs.

[Bud Cline]

With quoting tile I NEVER breakout the prices. They just take it to someone else to use against you. It's easy to lower your price a few pennies when you know what another guy is quoting.

Just last week I had a customer blow up when I estimated their job would cost 50K and some change. I was referred by the builder that I have known for years and he supported me. The customer thought the job was worth about 35K. She and her husband are living out of state and building here. I have no idea where she got the 35K figure, there have been no other quotes - so far.

They have provided me with NO idea of what tile they want to use. They think they want all three showers done with tile but aren't sure what tile. One shower measures eight feet by fifteen feet and is a walk-thru, but what kind of tile? There's a three-sided tub deck with aprons, there's a fancy feature in the entry floor-all site cut. There are splashes in the kitchen and angles everywhere. The bulk of the floor tile is 18" travertine and she wants 1/16" grout spacing. Wants everything sealed no less than two times. The subfloor is Advantec and has crowning/weathered seams. She is ready to have the travertine shipped to the job but has made no provisions to receive it. Features and decos remain a mystery.

How the flyin' hell is a guy supposed to quote that crap?

And she's pissed at me ???

[Demonseed]

I have thrown the customer under the bus, i showed up at the jobsite at 7am, and they were not ready, it was a State job, nothing was moved and they internally changed the work order, but they did not change the PO. I was not allowed to move anything and they expected me to wait on the job 2 hours for them to move the stuff, I actually had to move all of the stuff i did move prior to that back to the areas, because they were a problem 'customer'. I am walking off the job at 9:30 am with some guy screaming and yelling at me, yelling at my boss on MY cell phone, and I said dude I have been here since 7 AM, I have unloaded, packed up, unloaded and packed up again, in the last 2.5 hours.

He tells me they will cancel all the PO's if I leave, I said this is not my call, your boy over there told me to walk 2 hours ago because this was never scheduled, my boss told me to walk because i am getting paid prevailing to sit here and move boxes back and forth and load and unload. He told me we would never work for that Municipality again...

3 weeks later I was back, everything was moved, the PO matched the work order, they even made me coffee.

I just don't care about blame, it is what it is, I get sent to fix jobs, they want me to blame the customer, if it is our fault it is our fault. If it is the customers fault, it is their fault. It just feels a tad better when you know the customer is insane.

JustWood said I'd like to throw the customer under the bus sometimes. Like the ones who know you're coming to do their kitchen but haven't so much as cleared the breakfast dishes from the table yet. How long did you want us to be here?