adhering cove base or skirting

[Peter Kodner]

Brian, we used to figure 600 ft per day.

Base selection seems to be a very regional thing. Chicago was primarily 1/8 vinyl with toeless for carpet.

[BrianM]

Peter Kodner said Brian, we used to figure 600 ft per day. Base selection seems to be a very regional thing. Chicago was primarily 1/8 vinyl with toeless for carpet.

.080 gauge will be slower because it it's going to telegraph even the slightest imperfection in the wall or your gluing.
For me vinyl is slower than rubber
white or any light color will be slower than black or brown
100' rolls are slower than 4' pieces
6" or 2" are slower than 4"
preformed corners are slower than forming your own as you got

The bosses I've worked for pretty much never take any of that into account and just expect the same numbers. I'm too old to argue anymore. I'll just laugh and do my best. The worst production I could ever recall on any sizable work was around 400 a day in extremely cut up little elderly housing units with flat base over glue down carpet. There was another job with rolls of flat base over sloppy glue down with preformed corners. The carpet was done by another shop and they didn't even try to clean the drywall mud and crap against the wall. Nor did they give it any honest attempt to cut and trim down clean so flat base would work. We walked off the job 3-4 times and they just kept sending us back. Nothing ever changed. As installers we just give in and deal with it if our boss is that stupid. On top of that they bought the 2 1/2" wings and it was ridiculous trying to make the seam on Mexifornian drywall work right over the sloppy, horrible drywall corners. Preformed base corners would be great if they made preformed drywall corners too. I'm not sure I even got 400 average on that one.

[FlooringGirl]

I must be terrrible - my "hey, get 'er done" quota is 700 - 1,000 lf a day on cove base! No one should gripe on that at .50 a lf. What a good day of work! I still don't understand why they all hate cove so much! Makes me laugh, though, that the union guys are only required to put in 300 a day and get full benefits. WTF??

Tia

BrianM said .080 gauge will be slower because it it's going to telegraph even the slightest imperfection in the wall or your gluing. For me vinyl is slower than rubber white or any light color will be slower than black or brown 100' rolls are slower than 4' pieces 6" or 2" are slower than 4" preformed corners are slower than forming your own as you got The bosses I've worked for pretty much never take any of that into account and just expect the same numbers. I'm too old to argue anymore. I'll just laugh and do my best. The worst production I could ever recall on any sizable work was around 400 a day in extremely cut up little elderly housing units with flat base over glue down carpet. There was another job with rolls of flat base over sloppy glue down with preformed corners. The carpet was done by another shop and they didn't even try to clean the drywall mud and crap against the wall. Nor did they give it any honest attempt to cut and trim down clean so flat base would work. We walked off the job 3-4 times and they just kept sending us back. Nothing ever changed. As installers we just give in and deal with it if our boss is that stupid. On top of that they bought the 2 1/2" wings and it was ridiculous trying to make the seam on Mexifornian drywall work right over the sloppy, horrible drywall corners. Preformed base corners would be great if they made preformed drywall corners too. I'm not sure I even got 400 average on that one.

[rusty baker]

FlooringGirl said I must be terrrible - my "hey, get 'er done" quota is 700 - 1,000 lf a day on cove base! No one should gripe on that at .50 a lf. What a good day of work! I still don't understand why they all hate cove so much! Makes me laugh, though, that the union guys are only required to put in 300 a day and get full benefits. WTF?? Tia

Cove is just tedious, boring work.

[BrianM]

FlooringGirl said I must be terrrible - my "hey, get 'er done" quota is 700 - 1,000 lf a day on cove base! No one should gripe on that at .50 a lf. What a good day of work! I still don't understand why they all hate cove so much! Makes me laugh, though, that the union guys are only required to put in 300 a day and get full benefits. WTF?? Tia

***
I don't believe that there's any union shops competing anywhere where they're doing 300' a day on average. The worst of the worst "hall monsters" out of NYC would at least give me 500' a day. There are some exceptions with really horrible conditions. For example, we typically split up most guys as either hard surface or rug guys. So the rug guys don't have to hang much base. The hard surface guys will come behind them and do it. As a result the rug guys are less particular about how they scrape, clean, trim and tuck to less than perfect wall conditions. If they were hanging the base themselves they're going to go wrench out shims, screws, rocks and other crap that gets wedged in below the drywall. Also the drywall mud and every other kind of debris collects in the voids. The right thing to do is scrape, sweep and shopvac everything tits clean. Now the rug guys are getting pushed to slam in 150-200 yards per man and it's not always clean, cut and dry for them. Slacking off on the cleaning and prep is how they "cheat" to make better production with less effort.

So then here comes the poor base guy. Now he's got to have a carpet knife, pair of pliers, a hammer, chisel, phillips head screwdriver and sometimes a handbroom to push that crap out of the way as he's crawling around everyone else and their mess. Maybe you have an image of slapping pieces of base up on perfect walls over perfectly cut rugs in a clean empty room?

That ain't exactly what it's about and if your guys are griping at .50 a foot it's a sure bet they're dealing with all the same BS I live with. Nothing has changed in that regard from New England in 1978 to Mexifornia in 2010.

[BrianM]

rusty baker said Cove is just tedious, boring work.

*
Yup, and you forgot frustrating.

It was the endless pallets of 2 1/2" white base that I saw one morning as an apprentice when I came into the shop that inspired me to quit and give college a try. I had spent most of the previous summer hanging that stuff and this was the next phase of the same project about to break.

Here's some wonderful irony that helped in my decision. Being in the apprenticeship I was due raises at specific times. My boss somehow wasn't held to the same contract as his competiton. I won't go into details. Let's just say they were "connected" and if you made too much noise it was not going to work out well for you. But I could still go in and argue my case. There was just no hope of backing from the Business Agent. I had been getting hosed doing mostly demo, prep and hanging base for most of my training. The other journey made every effort NOT to teach me anything. When I demanded my raise he used the fact that I hadn't learned all the other skills against me. "How can I give you a raise when all you know how to do is hang base?"


My head just about exploded.

[Peter Kodner]

FlooringGirl said I Makes me laugh, though, that the union guys are only required to put in 300 a day and get full benefits. WTF?? Tia

In Chicago, piece work payment was policed pretty well (it is forbidden in the contract) but there certainly were unspoken understandings of what was minimum production. Those who didn't know found themselves sitting in the hall as word got around very quickly and a 300 ft per day get would likely be getting blisters on his rump.

As Brain said, there were always some shops that seemed to get around their Union contracts. We never found it necessary to cheat and were rewarded for this by having a good work ethic throughout our company. We tried very hard to only hire new people when we knew volume would remain steady to keep them working. It was not in our business model to hire and fire/lay off for fluctuating work loads. Our mechanics seemed to realize our commitment to them and appreciated we were truly looking out for them too. My experience is you can only expect loyalty when you give it first.

[FlooringGirl]

Interestingly enough, my best cove base installers are carpet mechanics. But again, they hate it.

I know a pair of brothers who are tile setters and went to work for a union, and they quickly realized that they were much better off doing their own jobs by the square foot (they are very fast), as the union rates were based on a much smaller amount of daily expectation. They're the ones who told me about the 300' a day cove base requirement.

Even prevailing wage is pretty darn easy to meet when I have to fill out all those yucky forms. I think the VCT is up to $27 an hour around here, for an example, and that is what, 50 square feet an hour.

Tia

[BrianM]

FlooringGirl said Interestingly enough, my best cove base installers are carpet mechanics. But again, they hate it. I know a pair of brothers who are tile setters and went to work for a union, and they quickly realized that they were much better off doing their own jobs by the square foot (they are very fast), as the union rates were based on a much smaller amount of daily expectation. They're the ones who told me about the 300' a day cove base requirement. Even prevailing wage is pretty darn easy to meet when I have to fill out all those yucky forms. I think the VCT is up to $27 an hour around here, for an example, and that is what, 50 square feet an hour. Tia

**
Pigeon holing the guys is mostly a matter of efficiency, production and expertise in that specialty. It's not always a reflection on the limitations of the man.

I've heard so much nonsense and propaganda about unions nothing would surprise me at this point when it comes to misinformation WITH an agenda.

300' a day? That's complete nonsense.

[FlooringGirl]

BrianM said ** Pigeon holing the guys is mostly a matter of efficiency, production and expertise in that specialty. It's not always a reflection on the limitations of the man. I've heard so much nonsense and propaganda about unions nothing would surprise me at this point when it comes to misinformation WITH an agenda. 300' a day? That's complete nonsense.

Yeah, I agree. Look, my guys and one gal are all subs. They pay their own taxes. Talk about some crossed wires, that self-employment tax is a bite, and it makes sense why people would try doing it a different way!

Tia

[Ed]

Tia I believe the 13% self employment tax is for social security and medicare contributions.

[DJ]

rusty baker said Cove is just tedious, boring work.

ditto times 10 why didn't i go to college? tia maybe you should go out one time with a base job just to get the "feel"/idea of it...why everyone hates it even better get a roll of base to put up the rolls really suck. 4' burke or roppe are the goot uns soft &pliable i callum installer friendly just thinking out loud

[Daris Mulkin]

I used to hate it when they wanted roll base put on all 4 walls in 1 piece. A bear to glue up. Of coarse I glued the base not the wall.

Daris

[BrianM]

Daris Mulkin said I used to hate it when they wanted roll base put on all 4 walls in 1 piece. A bear to glue up. Of coarse I glued the base not the wall. Daris

*
Would you rather have preformed INSIDE and outside corners? I've only used the inside ones a couple times in 32 years. Preformed outside corners we see a couple or three times a year. I love it when some dill weed comes in and makes a big stink insisting on preformed corners--------only to find they'll be 8-12 weeks on back order-------or they simply don't make preformed corners for that manufacturer.

I try to explain that preformed corners are stupid and ugly and no one uses them. But they think I'm full of it and so they push the issue. When they find out there are ZERO locally in stock and ZERO nationwide in stock what's absolutely astounding is they STILL insist that preformed corners are "industry standards" and we're trying to cheat them by making our own. Just try to follow that logic. They're the industry standard and therefore---------NONE are in stock anywhere. All the while they're selling countless zillions of feet of base. So those must all be straight walls.

I hate those little icon things but this is where i would put in the one where the little face pounds his head against the wall.

[cproader]

BrianM said * I hate those little icon things but this is where i would put in the one where the little face pounds his head against the wall.

.............:bric k: ..........:brick :