Moisture Testing for Flooring

[Jon Scanlan]

As we now have an Independent Moisture Testing Specialist from New Zealand I would like to see a friendly discussion about the way different countries test floors for moisture. There must be pros and cons for different methods.
I have always believed that the retailer should be testing the floors as the retailer gives the lay date. What is the point of the layer turning up with the product to install the new floor when the concrete slab is still wet? Why should the layer be testing the floor? What qualifications has he really got to do this testing? In most other parts of the building trade someone independent like the local council for plumbing, power boards for electrical etc will be doing the final testing.
Sorry to put you in the deep end FYI Floors

[hookknife]

Jon, I have always agreed that moisture testing should be done by a neutral party. Like most here I have used the Calcium Chloride test for years, I have since switched to the Rh In-Situ test method as I feel it gives a more accurate idea of what is going on in the slab rather than what is leaving the slab. I usually test only for my own information so as to protect myself from a failing floor due to moisture. As Peter said in another thread there are conditions to be met for any test to give a true reading though.

[Peter Kodner]

Jon, glad you started this thread, I forgot all about posting some details from the one I did last week. I'll try and pull the files tomorrow and give half of the MVERs and half of the Rh readings. This one may not be a great example as ten tests are on a 22 year old slab and 2 were on a 96 year old slab.

[Jon Scanlan]

hookknife said I usually test only for my own information so as to protect myself from a failing floor due to moisture. As Peter said in another thread there are conditions to be met for any test to give a true reading though.

Thats what I mean Hook. How qualified are you to do the testing? You test it and then when the floor fails why should you be left carrying the can? Your testing is fine and everybody is happy as long as the floor is fine. One of the easiest things I have found is that later when there is a problem everybody can see there was a moisture problem and why didn't the layer pick it up? You have done everything right in your mind and there is still a problem

[hookknife]

Jon Scanlan said Thats what I mean Hook. How qualified are you to do the testing? You test it and then when the floor fails why should you be left carrying the can? Your testing is fine and everybody is happy as long as the floor is fine. One of the easiest things I have found is that later when there is a problem everybody can see there was a moisture problem and why didn't the layer pick it up? You have done everything right in your mind and there is still a problem

Jon if I test for moisture and it passes, I have done all I can do, no one can control what happens later on down the road. The manufacturers set guidelines for us to follow and they are not difficult to understand and perform, We do quite a bit of moisture work from testing to the application of treatments. As long as we are meeting the requirements for the test and performing the test as per manufacturers instructions we have done what we could. I cannot control what is under the slab, or who might have destroyed the Vapor barrier etc etc. Like I stated before I do like the idea of neutral party testing, but thats not always going to happen.

[Mike Sahli]

hookknife said Jon if I test for moisture and it passes, I have done all I can do, no one can control what happens later on down the road. The manufacturers set guidelines for us to follow and they are not difficult to understand and perform, We do quite a bit of moisture work from testing to the application of treatments. As long as we are meeting the requirements for the test and performing the test as per manufacturers instructions we have done what we could. I cannot control what is under the slab, or who might have destroyed the Vapor barrier etc etc. Like I stated before I do like the idea of neutral party testing, but thats not always going to happen.

I wonder what would happen if you tested the slab and the test came back good to go and then you had a moisture related failure after install. If it went to court would the court accept your results ? how would you prove you did the test correctly, would they feel you where to bias ?

On smaller jobs I don't worry to much but on larger jobs I wont do the job with out a third party testing.

[hookknife]

Those are good points mike, If I am testing a large job I will document what I do with photos etc, Picture of the hygrometer etc, I also keep a written record of jobsite conditions. Remember though I usually am testing for my own info. For example if my rh test passes and I install and a year later there is a moisture problem because someone didnt use a Vapor barrier etc, I have no control over that, that is the concrete guys job, he didn't do what he was suppose to. On the other hand if the test reads high, I inform the parties involved and they can choose to have someone else test and proceed, or we can install some sort of moisture treatment and then install product.

[Jon Scanlan]

msahli said I wonder what would happen if you tested the slab and the test came back good to go and then you had a moisture related failure after install. If it went to court would the court accept your results ? how would you prove you did the test correctly, would they feel you where to bias ? .

Thats my point
As a PS I think it would be said your tests were wrong of which caused the flooring failure

[hookknife]

A moisture test is only good at the time of the install, a moisture test done in 2010 gives the green light for that install, if things change in that slab for whatever reason in 2011, how is that your problem????

[Mike Sahli]

hookknife said A moisture test is only good at the time of the install, a moisture test done in 2010 gives the green light for that install, if things change in that slab for whatever reason in 2011, how is that your problem????

Of course they will say your test was done wrong and the moisture was there all along.

You probably did do it right but now its CYA time and every body is looking for a fall guy. Talk to Ray Thompson, it happens.

[hookknife]

Very true Mike, but that is with everything. I think as an installer we are more unbiased than it would appear. For example, if I test and it passes I get to install product. Now if I test and it fails I get to do a Moisture treatment, Its really a win win for me, I could care less if it passes or fails I am working either way. I as an installer have no reason to swing the test either way. So let me ask you guys why are you so hesitant to do moisture testing????Is it just the liability or is there other reasons???

[Mike Sahli]

hookknife said Very true Mike, but that is with everything. I think as an installer we are more unbiased than it would appear. For example, if I test and it passes I get to install product. Now if I test and it fails I get to do a Moisture treatment, Its really a win win for me, I could care less if it passes or fails I am working either way. I as an installer have no reason to swing the test either way. So let me ask you guys why are you so hesitant to do moisture testing????Is it just the liability or is there other reasons???

Liability !!!!!

Being dragged into court will do that to you ! scary stuff ! I was saved because I had some body else do the " Official tests ".

[Jon Scanlan]

msahli said Liability !!!!! Being dragged into court will do that to you ! scary stuff ! I was saved because I had some body else do the " Official tests ".

And then it would fall onto the "Official tests" guy. Correct?

[hookknife]

Why do you feel the court would automatically find your testing incorrect?

[Mike Sahli]

Jon Scanlan said And then it would fall onto the "Official tests" guy. Correct?

It did !