stretchers

[DJ]

my manufactures will not warrant their product(carpet) if not power stretched

[stullis]

DJ said my manufactures will not warrant their product(carpet)

There I fixed your quote for you DJ.

[Demonseed]

And from that you stated:

"I disagree, if it is not power stretched, it is not installed properly!! Period!!!"

It doesn't offend me at all. I have been doing this 20+ years and to be honest, off the top of my head, I can't think of a single job I 'ate' as a result of poor installation. I had people not pay me for jobs, because they were just A-Holes, and my call backs are usually for bonehead things (put garbage in the wrong dumpster, didn't vacumn shavings from cove base, etc). I actually did a restretch today for a job I did, but I had to leave another mechanic to finish, my schedule got wrecked that week. The customer actually asked what I wanted for the restretch, I said nothing.

Now I hate to tell you this, and it may come as a suprise, aside from this website and others like it, I can guarantee you 85% of installers do not Power Stretch. Your phone should be ringing off the hook. The problem with your reasoning is, just because someone goes through the motions, does not mean they are doing the job right.

Here is my question to you: If someone went to a job, used all of the right materials, used all of the right tools, and still messed up the job, how could you call it installation failure? Or do you assume a certain level of basic competence to perform the job?

In the long run it is a moot point, I am not saying it is okay to Knee Kick carpet, or to take shortcuts, i am just saying almost everyone does at some point or in some situations, and when I do take those shortcuts, or leave someone behind on a job, I take full responsibility for it, just as I hold the people who tell me to take shortcuts responsible.

rgfloor said I do not want to get into a fight over this but, let's be correct, what you said is highlighted. I do not feel it is their choice!! The standards are there and I will continue to require that the standards be followed. And, yes I know that most will kick a 26 oz section 8 job, but then please don't file a claim for wrinkles and delamination. I am sorry if that offends you, but please understand that it is not me that wrote the standards. Thanks for understanding.

[rgfloor]

Demonseed said The problem with your reasoning is, just because someone goes through the motions, does not mean they are doing the job right. Here is my question to you: If someone went to a job, used all of the right materials, used all of the right tools, and still messed up the job, how could you call it installation failure? Or do you assume a certain level of basic competence to perform the job?

Yes, I do assume a level of basic competence!! With that being said, if I see overcuts, double cuts, gaps, mismatched seams, ledging or gaps at the seams, buckles and ridges I do more investigating, and yes I would call it installation related failure. Just because they go thru the motions does not mean they are doing it right anymore than doing it wrong for 30 years makes it right.

I know I made mistakes in my installation days just like all here have at one time or another. But the mark of a good installer is that he will check the job before he leaves and "correct" any deficiencies before the customer has to call the retailer.
You have no idea the things that I see on jobs that supposedly are done by top notch mechanics. From loose metals and tack strip to quarter turned rooms, had one where there was a fuzzed line 12 ft long on a diagonal across the room of loop pile carpet. Retailer and installer swore it was a manufacturing defect. The tips of the loops were cut, consumer finally admitted that the installer cut the stair runner in this room. Measured the fuzzed area and it was exactly 12 ft long. Double cut thru the stair runner into the fiber tips underneath, and yes I called it installer error.

[Country Flooring Direct]

I think power stretching is a good idea! can we agree on that?

Some do not power stretch or some only use the spike and not the poles when the power stretch. I view that as your choice just like you have the choice to work here or not work here.

[cproader]

rgfloor said I know I made mistakes in my installation days just like all here have at one time or another. .

................ ........

[kylenelson]

Like someone above said, I think alot of it has to do with how people were taught. They guy who taught me to power stretch learned how to install from someone that didn't powerstretch anything, he ended figuring out that you were supposed to power stretch and asked the 60 year old guy why he didn't power stretch, the answer was that he didn't know how and I think was afraid to learn. After 30 years of installing he was still kicking. The guy I learned from ended up having another installer teach him the correct way to power stretch. It was the first thing I learned from him, he drew it out on a little diagram how it was to be done correctly. I appreciate that now. Needless to say, I was taught to power stretch everything. Only one restretch ever and that was a cold-soft. It bubbled the width way over two inches in less than a twelve foot space...wow, didn't even know that was possible. It was ridiculous and we felt quite emberassed for acting like it was just going to be a little floating spot by the tackstrip...haha. Oh well, one out of hundreds isn't a bad record...unless you're a surgeon

I can't really see why you wouldn't power stretch. It is easier on your body by far. If you are mostly worried about time then using a pick is just as fast...if not faster than kicking because you're stretching 14 inches instead of four. I suppose that's trading one evil for another though. But it really is the correct way to install carpet, there's not really an arguement there. I stretch anything that is wide enough to put my stretcher into and kick in the tiny spots.

[Demonseed]

Here is the deal, I am just trying to be realistic. I must be crazy, because when i get up in the morning and go to work, my plan is to make some money. If I went by the book everyday of the week, by the spec's, by the GC, by the salesperson, the Mill, I could probably be home by 8am every morning saying, this is not right I ain't doing it.

Instead, I make it work ( can't change the laws of physics, but I try my best). This may come as a shock to people here, but I would rather do the job and have a few bucks in the bank, then to turn down or walk away from jobs, because I am too GOOD to deal with the BS jobs. RG this is funny, really funny, because I actually deliver VCT to the job site 48 hours + before the install, unless it is summer (on my own jobs).

You are in an insular world that deals with Bllack and Whte, that is fine, but that is not the real world. Another reference you made, we had a discussion about here, I explained why I used a loop pile cutter, instead of a top cutter (unsure of the technical name, as it seems to be regional).

I use a Paslode staple gun to fasten tackless on wood, is that in the book? $500 and $75+ for a case of staples, not counting an extra battery and fuel cells. Think that tackless is going anywhere? But, dammit, I don't see that in any specs. I must be doing it wrong.

How about the guys that use tri-tack and an utility knfe to notch out door jambs, instead of doing it in 3 pieces. (Please do not get into a semantic argument with me, about this, since it should be obvious, what I actually mean)

[Barry Carlton]

Boys Boys Boys,

This is an old discussion!!!!

Roger admitted that not everyone does everything right, (not even himself).

There are those here who would lead us to believe they never have a complaint and never do anything 'wrong'.

The biggest problem I see after 30+ yrs in the industry is that there are few hard and fast rules. Most are "recommended installation practices" There are few if any "required" practices.

I know there are some who 'bend' the so called rules to install flooring; but, who in the greater U.S. area would have floor covering in our homes, offices, medical facilities, and most other areas of out lives if the so called rules weren't bent? Few if any!

But that doesn't make it right!!!!!! Sadly,it's just a fact of life.......especially for those of us who want to do things 'right'

b

[Jim McClain]

Demonseed said Here is the deal, I am just trying to be realistic....

I cut out a whole bunch of text that only served to excuse the use of what this topic is about - a stretcher. None of it really has anything to do with using a stretcher or following standards. Remember, standards are minimums. Using more than the minimum fastening power to hold tackless is not really a problem, but it felt like you were trying to lump all these things together to mask the fact that you sometimes don't stretch carpet the way the manufacturers require you to.

Do the GCs, consumers, salespersons or anyone else for that matter actually suggest that you don't use a stretcher? Maybe hint that they would pay you better, earlier or in some other way make it worth your while to fudge on that standard? I doubt it. They just want the carpet down and no problems. It's the installer that makes the decision based on whether they think the job is worth doing right.

Maybe you have legitimate concerns, but you kinda lost your credibility when you made all those nonsense excuses. The biggest excuse that got me was making money - like you wouldn't make money doing it right, but you would doing it wrong. Oh, I get ya - you meant making it quicker, getting the job done faster because you didn't have to lug that heavy-ass thing in from the van. Problem with that still is, if you made a practice of using the stretcher on every job, you would get faster and you might even discover that the helper can tote that thing into the job better than you. Teach the helper how to set it up before you need it and how to move it when it's time. Even working alone it will keep you healthier and risk less injury... oh yeah, you and others have heard all this before.

I do care if an installer doesn't use a stretcher, but I have finally learned after all these years to keep my mouth closed about it as much as I can. But a box full of excuses just gets me yappin' again. If you don't want to use a stretcher, that's your decision. But please don't list a whole bunch of foolish excuses that might teach a new and impressionable installer reading this the wrong way to start their career. And please don't offer anything new to the older installers who have run out of excuses.

You want real world? Ask your medical practitioner what the chances of injury are for banging your knee against that thing - and do they increase with age and frequency. If you're looking to retire with future knee and back problems, then keep it up. But you don't need excuses. Just say you do it, will continue to do it and you don't give a damn what anyone else thinks about it. That holds some credibility. Excuses don't.

Sorry, I just had to rant a little. I feel better now.

Jim

[strip buster]

though this is an old tired and used topic........it still is beneficial to those who pass by it.i was taught to kick by my old man cause thats how he was taught. few yr ago i stumbled onto a flooring site----(why is it ....really....we must be the only trade that when we get home or b4 we leave we need to find out more about our work?)-----.....i was suprised at how many powered there carpet. i even asked what if the room was so small no join required.? the replies were power stretch. but what if it's so small it's like half a room?power stretch.....so i took that and went an bought myself one. then the company i work for took notice and said aren't many with a power stretcher would u like this larger job-since then i do mainly commercial and a lot of axminster ----(have a job starting mon with ax,might dust off the old cam n take pics)----have 2 powers and 2 crabs and literally have to much work.......but never did get a call back for wrinkles or needing to restretch.... if i'm doing domestic i will use the crab.commercial power. i believe if you prep the job correctly and use a crab then it is more than tight enough...........mismatched seams...... who is to blame?????? really who is to blame if it is matched on the ends or the middle or on an off thru the seam who is to blame? we know not the makers cause they put in fine print it's not gauranteed so how can an inspector say installer error? i'm with demonic on this one.time an place for everything......\\
by the way thku jim, david, chuck, perry,stephen,scott,al.sk,tony ,rusty an any one that called me kick jockey ,,,,,or pointed me in the right direction-sorry for the names i missed this is off the top of the head,,,,,, and us aussies like to pummel e few after work.....;. weren't for you i would still kick....that is fact.

[davegarden]

I had no idea that power stretching could be such a sensitive subject. I do not understand how someone could knowingly do their job incorrectly, no matter what that job is. When you ask how you would feel if your doctor did his job incorrectly, you say they make more money. I agree. Try a dishwasher out then. Would you go to a restraunt and accept your food on dirty dishes? When you tie a wage or job size to a standard you are cheating someone, most likely yourself. You are the one who ends up with knee and kidney problems, not that customer who had a small job.

Maybee I am missing the point here. Maybee kicking is easier than it looks. Maybee I just never learned how. It just looks like it hurts to me. For the record I know alot of installers who are only power stretch. Does that make them great? No, that juist means that they care enough about their own bodys to save them for after work playtime with their family's. I am in my forty's now and I can still play b-ball with my 19 year old son. Had I been kicking for the last 20 years that would not be possible.

[DJ]

i can count the number of mistakes i have made on one hand, none of which involved stretching

[Al Gladden]

since i am a 2nd generation installer/salesman, i was taught powerstretching is the only way... i am way to fat and lazy to kick in a house...

[Demonseed]

Since it is apparent, you did not bother to read everything I posted, I guess i will do you the same favor. This is the part of the website I love most, everyone chiming in about how they always power stretch everything. They always latex and seal seams, and how they do everything by the book every time. CP and Dobby, I believe, I am sure in their younger days they fudged the rules, heck, Nick says he is getting 10 bucks a yard, at that rate, I would be on board. But for the meat and potatoes, you are not power stretching a 9'x12' room.

Who is fooling who here?

I am not going to BS anyone, every job is different. I power stretch all of my own work. I would power stretch everything if I was paid to do so, but I am not. I wonder how many people here have actually run jobs. You seem to have no deadlines, no accountability. How many jobs do you all walk away from on average?

Must be a lot. You are all doing tests on site that should not be an issue, you complain about adhesives, you complain about materials, so what do you do all day?

You wake up in a bad mood and find somethng wrong with the job and say Nope, this is not going to work?

Get your radars ready, I am mixing 60# bags of mortar with Plainipatch, to do heavy patching. I have a good ratio, then skim coat with ardex...I guess I broke another spec.

There is an old saying: 90% of guys admit they masterbate, the other 10% are liars.

Get over yourselves.

Jim McClain said I cut out a whole bunch of text that only served to excuse the use of what this topic is about - a stretcher. None of it really has anything to do with using a stretcher or following standards. Remember, standards are minimums. Using more than the minimum fastening power to hold tackless is not really a problem, but it felt like you were trying to lump all these things together to mask the fact that you sometimes don't stretch carpet the way the manufacturers require you to. Do the GCs, consumers, salespersons or anyone else for that matter actually suggest that you don't use a stretcher? Maybe hint that they would pay you better, earlier or in some other way make it worth your while to fudge on that standard? I doubt it. They just want the carpet down and no problems. It's the installer that makes the decision based on whether they think the job is worth doing right. Maybe you have legitimate concerns, but you kinda lost your credibility when you made all those nonsense excuses. The biggest excuse that got me was making money - like you wouldn't make money doing it right, but you would doing it wrong. Oh, I get ya - you meant making it quicker, getting the job done faster because you didn't have to lug that heavy-ass thing in from the van. Problem with that still is, if you made a practice of using the stretcher on every job, you would get faster and you might even discover that the helper can tote that thing into the job better than you. Teach the helper how to set it up before you need it and how to move it when it's time. Even working alone it will keep you healthier and risk less injury... oh yeah, you and others have heard all this before. I do care if an installer doesn't use a stretcher, but I have finally learned after all these years to keep my mouth closed about it as much as I can. But a box full of excuses just gets me yappin' again. If you don't want to use a stretcher, that's your decision. But please don't list a whole bunch of foolish excuses that might teach a new and impressionable installer reading this the wrong way to start their career. And please don't offer anything new to the older installers who have run out of excuses. You want real world? Ask your medical practitioner what the chances of injury are for banging your knee against that thing - and do they increase with age and frequency. If you're looking to retire with future knee and back problems, then keep it up. But you don't need excuses. Just say you do it, will continue to do it and you don't give a damn what anyone else thinks about it. That holds some credibility. Excuses don't. Sorry, I just had to rant a little. I feel better now. Jim