newbie and beginner seeking some advice...

[babyruthie]

Hi Everyone. I just found this forum after a week or so of looking into flooring. I've been so caught up in reading all these posts. Everyone seems so helpful and knowledgable.

Here are a few things that we have some questions on. (I am sure there will be more as the weeks come)

Wood Choice and Installation method:
We have plywood under the carpet and an unfinished basement below.

We have decided on the wood that we are getting. We are getting 3/4 solid handscraped maple - either 3", 5" or combo. We really like the 5" but we weren't sure if we would be able to put that in ourselves. We want to do a nail down installation. Some places say that anything over 4" should be glued down. Would there be any difference with installing 3" and 5" combination in nail down only vs. 5". We are concerned that the 3" only might not look as nice as the mixed or 5 - b/c of having more boards and more lines...

Also - I had been to one place that said they use glue coated nails (this was for an engineered floor - not sure if that makes a difference.) Could that be used on 3/4 solid.

Can someone please advise us on this? Thanks :-)
Layout Question
We have about 500 sq ft and when they came to measure the guy told me that he would start in the hall to be sure that its straight going down the hall - and then work out from there. I am going to attempt to attach a picture. My husband is worried that that would mean the main entry hall would have the wood going across - not leading you into the house. Please see the diagram and make some suggestions as to what we might be able to do. Entry hall is 4 ft wide - not on diagram for some reason.

How Long?
How long do you think it will take for first-time DIYers to install about 500 sq ft in one room and 2 hallways?

Decisions we have made thus far - unless there are better options/sugggestions
1. Somerset Hand Scraped - Country Collection maple
2. #15 Roof paper for additional moisture protection
3. Prob renting a pneumatic floor stapler - or is it better to find one used somewhere? We will be needing it for a while since it will prob take us a while.
4. Will be running the wood perpendicular to the joists - except possibly in entry hall (see question above)
5. Starting in the hallway on the side by the LR and working into there.

PIC:If you can't see it please let me know...



Thats all I can think of for now... I am off to read more of these forums.
Thanks,
BabyRuthie

[TFP Admin]

Thanks for your questions and the diagram. I'm sure you'll get replies very soon. Here's a link to the product, if anyone wants to know more: Country Collection

R'gards,

T

[Floorguy]

Originally Posted by babyruthie Hi Everyone. I just found this forum after a week or so of looking into flooring. I've been so caught up in reading all these posts. Everyone seems so helpful and knowledgable. Here are a few things that we have some questions on. (I am sure there will be more as the weeks come) Wood Choice and Installation method: We have plywood under the carpet and an unfinished basement below. We have decided on the wood that we are getting. We are getting 3/4 solid handscraped maple - either 3", 5" or combo. We really like the 5" but we weren't sure if we would be able to put that in ourselves. We want to do a nail down installation. Some places say that anything over 4" should be glued down. Would there be any difference with installing 3" and 5" combination in nail down only vs. 5". We are concerned that the 3" only might not look as nice as the mixed or 5 - b/c of having more boards and more lines... Also - I had been to one place that said they use glue coated nails (this was for an engineered floor - not sure if that makes a difference.) Could that be used on 3/4 solid. Can someone please advise us on this? Thanks :-) Layout Question We have about 500 sq ft and when they came to measure the guy told me that he would start in the hall to be sure that its straight going down the hall - and then work out from there. I am going to attempt to attach a picture. My husband is worried that that would mean the main entry hall would have the wood going across - not leading you into the house. Please see the diagram and make some suggestions as to what we might be able to do. Entry hall is 4 ft wide - not on diagram for some reason. How Long? How long do you think it will take for first-time DIYers to install about 500 sq ft in one room and 2 hallways? Decisions we have made thus far - unless there are better options/sugggestions 1. Somerset Hand Scraped - Country Collection maple 2. #15 Roof paper for additional moisture protection 3. Prob renting a pneumatic floor stapler - or is it better to find one used somewhere? We will be needing it for a while since it will prob take us a while. 4. Will be running the wood perpendicular to the joists - except possibly in entry hall (see question above) 5. Starting in the hallway on the side by the LR and working into there. PIC:If you can't see it please let me know... Thats all I can think of for now... I am off to read more of these forums. Thanks, BabyRuthie

Wood Choice and Installation method:

Maple is on the low side for dimensional stability. Meaning it shrinks and swells with changes in humidity more than other species of wood. Add the wide widths, and it multiplies the effect between boards.

Instead of screwing and pegging plank wood flooring, it has become accepted to use beads of glue along with nailing, which means no asphalt felt will be able to be used(this could be bad, since your over an unfinished basement, without humidity control below. Heck, it could be bad for any wood flooring species)


Layout Question

The direction of the joist are going to dictate the direction of the flooring. Flooring goes across the joists, not the same direction as they do, below. If the joist change direction, then so does the flooring. If you beef up the substrate, you can go in the same direction of the joists. An angle installation, like a 45º, or any degree to 22.5º works without additional subfloor strengthening.


How Long?

Hehehehe! Is this a trick question
Well, that is going to be a hard question to answer. Are you determined and worked with other wood projects, or scared to death, and really clueless.


Decisions we have made thus far - unless there are better options/suggestions

1. Nice wood

2. You really need asphalt impregnated felt, because of the basement, and that is not going to guarantee it will not cup. A pin type wood moisture meter is going to be your best buddy. Get to know him well.

If you glue and nail, the felt will impede, the glue doing what your wanting to accomplish.

3. Check E-bay or try Harbor Freight Tools, then E-bay it after your done.

4. See above answer

5. I could do it either way. The hall is going to be the most difficult, or they usually are with all the door jambs to get under, so I usually start in the hardest part, that way the rest of the project it less frustrating, instead of getting to that part when your tired and ready get done.

Good Luck!!

[rgfloor]

Have you thought about your rock fireplace?

You will need to undercut the rock to slide the wood under, otherwise just trying to cut to the rock will not allow any expansion space and will be very frustrating.

A power jamb saw with a diamond blade is just the ticket. $$$

[babyruthie]

Thanks Floor Guy - that was very helpful.

I didn't realize that Maple was less stable. I kept hearing that its a harder wood compared to some others.

A few additional Questions regarding your feedback:

Flooring:
We are leaning more towards the 3" planks b/c we don't want to increase the chances of cupping. If we go with the 3" boards - will we eliminate the high risk of cupping?? Also, would there be any difference between the 3" oak and the 3" maple?

Layout:
We will have to look into whether we want to do the with joist installation and how to beef up the substrate. I think the floor will look more seamless without changing directions. But do think it might look weird when you walk in the house and the wood is going short-ways across the hall.

Time:
We aren't too experienced with woodworking - but we are dedicated and take our time to research and read to learn about it. I know that was a complete loaded question...

Paper Choice:
What is an asphalt impregnated paper? When we were at the flooring place - they mentioned the choice of rosen or the tar paper.

Thanks so much for your help!

Hi babyruthie,

To answer a few of your questions, it's normal practice to keep the wood running the same direction throughout the rooms. You should definitely run it perpendicular to the joists to avoid creating hills and valleys in the event that your joists are slightly unlevel. As far as how long you think it will take to install for firsttimers, a good rule of thumb is to take however long you thought it would take you and double it

Hope that helps! Have a great day

[rgfloor]

Originally Posted by babyruthie Layout: We will have to look into whether we want to do the with joist installation and how to beef up the substrate. I think the floor will look more seamless without changing directions. But do think it might look weird when you walk in the house and the wood is going short-ways across the hall.

Do consider though, that if you go the other direction, you end up with the wood going across the other hallway in the short direction. And also it will be going the short direction in the living room.

From a professional standpoint run it all across the joist! JMO

[Floorguy]

Originally Posted by babyruthie I didn't realize that Maple was less stable. I kept hearing that its a harder wood compared to some others.

Yes, but the straight grain of Maple makes dents and finish scratches appear more so then an Oak, just because it is harder, it will still dent. just not as deep, comparatively.

Flooring: We are leaning more towards the 3" planks b/c we don't want to increase the chances of cupping. If we go with the 3" boards - will we eliminate the high risk of cupping?? Also, would there be any difference between the 3" oak and the 3" maple?

The unfinished basement is going to be the cause of any cupping, from moisture gradient. The unfinished basement is going to be more humid by nature. The underside of the substrate is going to be exposed to more moisture then the living area. It will build humidity in a basement. Humidity is moisture in the air. Wood swells with moisture the bottom of the flooring swells because the substrate is wet from the humidity below and the top of the board doesn't swell. this cups the board.

Now, installing a floor that is not properly acclimated, can cause edge compression, if it swells from interior humidity after it is installed. This gives a cupped appearance, too.

Layout: We will have to look into whether we want to do the with joist installation and how to beef up the substrate. I think the floor will look more seamless without changing directions. But do think it might look weird when you walk in the house and the wood is going short-ways across the hall.

Since the basement is unfinished, blocking between joist every 16 inches is going to be easier then if the basement was finished out.

Paper Choice: What is an asphalt impregnated paper? When we were at the flooring place - they mentioned the choice of rosen or the tar paper.

Tar paper / roofing felt basically. Rosen paper does nothing for your situation and that basement. They have Aqua-bar made by Fortifiber, too, which may be better then the tar paper.

[Jim McClain]

Originally Posted by babyruthie Layout: We will have to look into whether we want to do the with joist installation and how to beef up the substrate. I think the floor will look more seamless without changing directions. But do think it might look weird when you walk in the house and the wood is going short-ways across the hall.

I vote for a 45 degree layout for the hallways. It will look very nice and it will allow you to tackle each room separately with the transition being a couple of boards between the door casings and parallel to the doorway. Neither hallway will look odd then.

Jim

[skhardwoods]

Undercutting the rock hearth was mentioned, you will want to also undercut the door case's down the hall to allow the wood flooring to slip underneath, to provide a clean finish. A pull saw, such as those made by Shark, will work well, are less then 20 bucks. Use a scrap of the flooring, along with the paper you choose under it, to cut them.
As far as using Aquabar paper, Fortifiber claims a perm rating of less the 1, wood can handle up to 6 perms. Felt can run 7 and up. So from strictly a viewpoint of limiting vapor emissions, Aquabar is the way to go.
Here's a link to the Fortifiber site....Fortifiber :: Flooring

I like the 45 layout too, but the gun you use won't go far enough into the corners, meaning more hand nailing. Cutting in a board to fit in that layout in the hall, will be a bit more difficult then a straight run, but may be worth the effort. I will say that all of us here charge more for a diagonal layout, as it is more labor intensive, and will require twice as many cuts, and produce more waste. As I read it, she is doing the hall, and living room, and entry hall. No bedrooms.

[babyruthie]

Originally Posted by skhardwoods Undercutting the rock hearth was mentioned, you will want to also undercut the door case's down the hall to allow the wood flooring to slip underneath, to provide a clean finish. A pull saw, such as those made by Shark, will work well, are less then 20 bucks. Use a scrap of the flooring, along with the paper you choose under it, to cut them. As far as using Aquabar paper, Fortifiber claims a perm rating of less the 1, wood can handle up to 6 perms. Felt can run 7 and up. So from strictly a viewpoint of limiting vapor emissions, Aquabar is the way to go. Here's a link to the Fortifiber site....Fortifiber :: Flooring I like the 45 layout too, but the gun you use won't go far enough into the corners, meaning more hand nailing. Cutting in a board to fit in that layout in the hall, will be a bit more difficult then a straight run, but may be worth the effort. I will say that all of us here charge more for a diagonal layout, as it is more labor intensive, and will require twice as many cuts, and produce more waste. As I read it, she is doing the hall, and living room, and entry hall. No bedrooms.

I went to the website - looks like good stuff. I will try to find out where to get it. I do not think we can attempt the diagnols - just too much extra work. No we are not doing the bedrooms - only the halls, LR and the small closets int he hallways.

Originally Posted by Jim McClain I vote for a 45 degree layout for the hallways. It will look very nice and it will allow you to tackle each room separately with the transition being a couple of boards between the door casings and parallel to the doorway. Neither hallway will look odd then. Jim

I am going to attach some possiblities that I tried my best to mock-up - this should help with my terrible explanations.

Originally Posted by Floorguy Since the basement is unfinished, blocking between joist every 16 inches is going to be easier then if the basement was finished out.

Depending on what we decide this should be able to be done. We jsut have to check to be sure theres no pies running through there.

Originally Posted by rgfloor Do consider though, that if you go the other direction, you end up with the wood going across the other hallway in the short direction. And also it will be going the short direction in the living room. From a professional standpoint run it all across the joist! JMO

I don't think I explained very well. We would do each hallway longways - which means only the entry would be parallel with the joists and then the LR would be running the length of the room which would be perpendicular to the joists. my main concern with this is that it will appear choppy with the floor switching directions in such a small area - see the new diagrgams below.

Also - I found an air stapler at Harbor Frieght - can you guys tell me if this would be good to use.

Also, I know I have to get staples to fit the nailer - but are the staples that HF sells just as good as the ones that I was going to get at the flooring place. Any specifics that I need to consider when buying them (besides fitting the nailer.)

here are the diagrams:

1. All the wood is laid across the joints.


2. Hallways longways - only the entry hall is not across joists.


3. Hallways longways with angled corner - I think this might be over our head...


please - feel free to comment and give any advice.

ohh - re:fireplace - I don;t think the rock is resting on the floor - it looks like there is a bit of morter between the rock and the floor. I have no idea how much work it is to undercut the rock - would we be able to do something more like squaring the mortar and then using a baby threshold of something to frame up the FP and then have the expansion gap hidden under that. I have no idea if that made any sense..lol

[rgfloor]

Originally Posted by babyruthie ohh - re:fireplace - I don;t think the rock is resting on the floor - it looks like there is a bit of morter between the rock and the floor. I have no idea how much work it is to undercut the rock - would we be able to do something more like squaring the mortar and then using a baby threshold of something to frame up the FP and then have the expansion gap hidden under that. I have no idea if that made any sense..lol

Perfect sense, and yes that is a common way to do it. The pros usually like it under cut but a baby threshold will do just fine. Then fill in any gaps with morter.

[skhardwoods]

The most important thing is that you use 2" staples for your 3/4" floor. As far as layout goes, the picture with the floor all laying across the joists is fine, but If I was going to turn the entry, I would move the transition are back to where the wall, closest to the LR door is, making that hall look "longer". The reason the halls used to run the long was was to facilitate the use of the big floor sander's....They are longer then your hall is wide. Nothing wrong with having it across the joists, unless you just don't like the look.

[Floorguy]

If there are any pipes close to the subfloor, 2" staples or cleats my find them as they blow through the subfloor, making the holding power of the fastener 50% weaker, especially if it is OSB. Squeak, squeak, later.

I vote 1½" staples over 3/4 subfloor. and 2" with 33/32 flooring over 3/4 subfloor.

[Nick Arrera]

Like the look of the first picture .. just my two cents .. oooops now I'm broke ..