Engineered hardwood flooring problem

[thagen]

I just installed a Bruce Engineered hardwood flooring in an office this weekend. The product is 3/8 inch thick and 3 inches wide. It installs as a lock and fold system (no glue required). After the install the customer rolled across the floor with a office chair with plastic caster wheels. Much to my surprise, and his, the floor made snapping noises as the chair rolled across. I had no explanation to offer this client other than I would look into it with the manufacture. The manufacture (Armstrong floors) had no explanation of the noises. The flooring was floated over a recommended underlayment and was placed over a concrete floor. The concrete floor was checked for level and found to be in great shape. I even ripped up a portion of the floor to try a different underlayment and the same situation occurred. My conclusion is the flooring planks must be defective.

My question is: Has anyone else experienced this problem and is this caused by too much play in the locking joint?

I have installed many laminate and engineered floors and have never encountered this type of problem.

[Tandy Reeves]

What was the moisture readings or the planks and concrete subfloor? Was the wood and subfloor within 4% of each other?

[stullis]

It's far to common with floating floors.

[Peter Kodner]

Tandy Reeves said What was the moisture readings or the planks and concrete subfloor? Was the wood and subfloor within 4% of each other?

Tandy, not following the 4% with a concrete subfloor. If the concrete was checked and dry, install could proceed. If not, a moisture barrier underlayment would need to be used. I would agree we need to know the MC of the concrete and how this was determined.

How was the subfloor flatness tolerance checked? And what was the variance? Did you see if any of the tongues or grooves broken or otherwise compromised when you replaced the underlayment? Did you use a tapping block on any of the joints during installation?

Last, can you better describe the noise? Rice krispies or the tongues snapping off? Does it occur when walked on? What are the size of the casters? Rubber, nylon, hard plastic? Four, five or six casters? How large is the person using the chair?

[rgfloor]

thagen said My conclusion is the flooring planks must be defective.

Based upon what tests and findings?

We can never just pull a conclusion out of thin air.

With that said, how was the flatness of the concrete tested, what were the results, who performed the test? Have you read the requirements for roller casters for the Bruce floor?

Those are the first two things I would check on.

OK, I'll help a little, this is a snippet from the Bruce warranty, something they do NOT cover: ■ Damage from Hard or metal caster wheels (if rolling casters are used, we recommend only soft wheels that are wide enough
to support the load).

Oh, thanks for joining us and welcome. Stick around and share.

[thagen]

To check the levelness I used a ten foot plate level in several spots and found no high or low spots. The noise is a small crackling sound. The noise occurs over the entire floor not just in one area. When I remove the flooring none of the locking tongues or grooves were damaged. I also laid a portion of the flooring directly over the concrete and had the same result. I took several pieces of the flooring, locked it together and looked at the edge. The flooring did not always lock and fold flat. The last thing I did was bought another locking floor product, installed it over the same underlayment and over the same concrete floor and there was absolute silence. Therefore I concluded it must be the flooring itself. Armstrong gave no solution other than go back to the retailer. The retailers stated the floor was remove so no inspection can be done thus cannot be returned. I really just want to know where that sound was coming from. That is why I posted the question. I wanted to see if others have experienced this problem. I have installed many floors from laminate to hardwood and have never had this happen. I appreciate the reponses thus far.

[stullis]

rgfloor said Based upon what tests and findings? We can never just pull a conclusion out of thin air.

What tests do inspectors do on the product? typically none

[rgfloor]

stullis said What tests do inspectors do on the product? typically none

Typical? I can't answer for what you see, but I test for everything I can and a lot of it is simply to rule things out. Measurements L+W+Thickness, I use a digital micrometer. Take some product and physically put it together, visually examine the locking system, moisture readings on the top and bottom. I have often taken a piece home and played with it in my garage, to see if the skin will delaminate, etc.

BTW, I hope you never see Peter K. on an inspection, he'll test everything from the light bulbs to the stains in yer shorts. I believe he says "I want to know more about this floor than anyone else on the face of this earth."

I don't think you can lump all inspectors together!!

[Floorguy]

thagen said My conclusion is the flooring planks must be defective. My question is: Has anyone else experienced this problem and is this caused by too much play in the locking joint? I have installed many laminate and engineered floors and have never encountered this type of problem.

Acclimating to a very dry moisture content, in an environment below 30%rH, may cause the joints to have more play then say a floor installed in a 40-50%rh environment.

I have been asked to look at some newly installed laminate with that concern and when I checked the humidity inside the house, it was 18%.

[stullis]

rgfloor said Typical? I can't answer for what you see, but I test for everything I can and a lot of it is simply to rule things out. Measurements L+W+Thickness, I use a digital micrometer. Take some product and physically put it together, visually examine the locking system, moisture readings on the top and bottom. I have often taken a piece home and played with it in my garage, to see if the skin will delaminate, etc. BTW, I hope you never see Peter K. on an inspection, he'll test everything from the light bulbs to the stains in yer shorts. I believe he says "I want to know more about this floor than anyone else on the face of this earth." I don't think you can lump all inspectors together!!

That's why I said "typically none".

This guy is dealing with the same BS that pervades the industry. Drag their feet hoping the customer will just give up due to frustration and cost. Tech support don't really have any answers or knowledge of the product they sell, just blame it on the installer or site conditions.

Typical responses from the "do nothing" mentality from the rest of the industry that installers have to deal with all the time.

Armstrong gave no solution other than go back to the retailer. The retailers stated the floor was remove so no inspection can be done thus cannot be returned.

Installer is left holding the bag taking care of the customer while all other parties are looking for ways to screw the customer.

PS Just because the material was removed doesn't mean it can't be tested.

[Tandy Reeves]

Scott, I say this in all kindness. If you HATE this industry as much as you say, why in heavens name don't you get another job. As you have indicated over and over the flooring industry is the only industry that is made up of all thieves, crooks and stupid people with the exception of certain installers.

Why don't you buy yourself a mill, a dealership, you can be the installer and inspect all your problems (if any). By doing that you can write your own rules from start to finish and live in your perfect world.

Scott you are better than all the crap you are throwing around.

[Kman]

Once again.....

[stullis]

Did I say I hated the industry? I dislike how the industry handles things though.

Are your methods for changin the industry working? I don't see any change in fact I just see things getting worse and worse and I guess when I see BS being preached I'm saying something about it.

The squeeky wheel gets the grease.


Of course many on here don't like that, they would rather just keep getting the shaft and working for "going rate" wages and earning less than the hack throwing the material on the floor.

The installer already has to do the quality control inspections that the manufacturer shold be doing. Why?
Why does the inspection industry support that position?

Why is this installer and his customer getting hung out to dry?

[thagen]

Sorry my question caused some bitterness. My point is this, if you spend $900 for a product that has been designed to lock and fold and be used as a floor then that is what it should do. If not, all effort should be made to remedy any problems that arise. Especially when the product was installed to the manufactures directions. As a building contractor I could not brush the problem off on someone else.

Bottom line is I wanted an mutually beneficial solution to the problem and I did not recieve that from either the retailer or manufacture. The Armstrong and the retailer must be doing well in this economy to dismiss this problem to someone else.

To use a cheaper similar product and have no problems tells me the manufacture and retailer are interested in one thing---a sale. "Quality product" doesn't seem to mean much from this manufacture. It is frustrating for the consumer and installer to know they have no support for a product they spent much time and money on.

[rgfloor]

stullis said Why does the inspection industry support that position? Why is this installer and his customer getting hung out to dry?

I do not believe the inspection industry supports that position, however if those are the standards that are applied to a product then that is what an inspector MUST report.

Do we know for a certainty that this installer and his customer are getting hung out to dry? The standards for an inspector are that he report what he can verify and prove, any thing else is a WAG and has no business in an inspection report.

Like you I have issues with the way the industry handles a lot of things. I also have learned I can get a lot further from the inside than the outside.

At this point in time the installer has given some opinions and we have offered ours. I feel for this guy because it seems to some that he is getting the run around, but let me ask you, Scott, How would you handle this particular situation? Give us some detailed information, please. I'm not trying to be a wise guy!