Janka Scale

Country Flooring Direct · July 2, 2009, 02:25 PM

GaryS said

Hi Dan

I would say that made sense if not for having fitted a new American Black Walnut floor recently and this stuff was as hard as nails as well.

Walnut although according to Janka scale is softer than oak in reality it is harder to work with, it is both harder to cut and harder to nail.

Without doing exhaustive research on the properties of different species of tree and hence flooring I was wondering what the experiences of the forum members were on using different types of wood and if there is other guides like the Janka scale that an installer can refer to for info about the properties of the floor.

ie. The dust from cutting Brazillian Walnut (IPE) can cause an allergic reaction something I only found out recently.

I have been told that Ipacac comes from the IPE tree. So if it makes you sick I understand. I have ripped macaranduba boards down on the table saw and smoke a cigarette afterwards so my nostrils feel better.

FlooringGirl · July 2, 2009, 10:12 PM

Peter Kodner said

I'm not a fan of the group but have been a member several times in the past.

Why aren't you a fan? Anyhow, welcome GaryS! And, I'm beginning to see a pattern here - wood hardness depends not as much on species as it does on age when harvested, location, soil, etc. Therefore, I cannot really tell a customer what is harder or better unless knowing the details of where the particular product comes from! My reps are gonna hate me ...

Tia

GaryS · July 4, 2009, 01:33 AM

Hi Tia

Thanks for the welcome.

I have sort of arrived at the same conclusion myself that you can only provide the most general information on how a floor is going to perform. matt finish rather than gloss for example and then woods like teak or ipe that are harder than oak or at the other end of the scale pine.

The problem from the installers point of view is that you only ever really see the floor when it is fitted so you have very little idea how it will perform in use.

Peter Kodner · July 4, 2009, 10:15 AM

Installers also do not know how the floor will be used, maintained or if the expectations are reasonable. Huge concerns when trying to provide info on performance. Hopefully the sales person learned this before selling the job and used the knowledge to put the right floor in!

GaryS · July 4, 2009, 04:13 PM

Hi Peter part of the reason for the original post was to find out how this knowledge can tell the sales person which floor to recommend, apart from the janka scale and telling the customer not to walk on the floor LOL. How do you advise the customer on what floor they should purchase.

Ken · July 4, 2009, 06:58 PM

Lots of questions there, What are you lookiing for in a new floor, if its low maintenance, how well/often do the maintain the current flooring? isit possible for them to provide a stable environment for the new flooring if needed? will the new floor require more or less maintenance? Where in the home and where is the home located? high traffic/abuse area of the home? basement? bedroom? etc. What is the look you are trying to achieve? Are you looking for a 5,10,20 year floor, and of course what is your budget, will also be a determining factor. A good salesperson that wants the customer to come back will take the time to educate himself about the customer and their job, and LISTEN to the answers, not just the dollar figure they have to spend.
Sales is like fishing, My grandma was a avid blue gill fisherwoman, and her motto was where theres little ones theres big ones, once we found a spot and were catching fish, she refused to move the boat, cant ever remember not coming home with enough bluegill for dinner when grandma went fishing with us.

GaryS · July 5, 2009, 10:47 AM

Hi Ken

That is what I am asking armed with the answers to these questions how do you determine what floor to advise them on. as there seems to be no relevant factors apart from the janka scale to determine how a floor is going to perfom.

Tandy Reeves · July 5, 2009, 12:24 PM

I would be careful selling wood on the basis of the Janka Scale. Remember this is a round ball dropped on a flat sawed piece of wood. Would you get the same reading on quarter or rift sawed wood?

I would dwell more on the environment the wood will be subjected to. Kids with toys, dogs, track in debris, maintenance, and installation method. I have seen white pine floors that looked better after a time than oak or walnut. It just depends on how the floor is treated.

GaryS · July 5, 2009, 02:06 PM

Hi Tandy again I stress that this is the point of the post how do you specify a particular wood over another even given the details of the conditions.

Ok for the sake of example lets take extreme conditions very heavy traffic dogs and kids and also a room that gets very light use. assume money is not the issue. As an installer and a salesman I am likely to be asked by customers with all sorts of different requirements and would like to be able to give some positive info about what is available rather than having them purchase a product that is not suitable for them.

As per one of Perry's(Floorguys) favourite sayings "The more you learn the more you earn"

As hardwood is not my area I was hoping to get some advice from some of the guys that have been dealing with it for a while and know what works and what doesn't janka scale aside folks I have read on here salespeople getting a hard time for selling the wrong product so how do you use the information about how the product is used maintained ect to arrive at a product recommendation.

Ken · July 5, 2009, 02:30 PM

[QUOTE=GaryS;69262]Hi Tandy again I stress that this is the point of the post how do you specify a particular wood over another even given the details of the conditions.

This statement makes me wonder about what your really asking,
bottom line, wood is wood, all will dent, scratch, gouge and show wear.

From your quote above, I would say that you need to become more knowledgable about all flooring products so that you could tell this customer what product will fill their needs the best,
If money is no object than what is? longevity, maintenance or looks/color?
if they are asking for your opinion on what would give them the best overall performance/life, or what will give them the look they have their heart set on then you need to be able to explan why one type of floor will be better than another or vice versa.
If they want wood and in your professional opinion its not the best choice then say so, also state why, and what issues may arise out of that decision, so that they have the final say and know what they are getting themsleves into. Then tell them all wood scratches, dents, gouges and darker colors, high gloss finishes show more issues.

Tandy Reeves · July 5, 2009, 02:31 PM

If this was my customer I would recommend 3/4" oak (thiner thicknesses in my opinion are no more than shortcuts rather than doing it right). Oak has been used in America for years, and is still the standard that other people try to make other woods perform like.

It has been installed for well over a hundred years and in many of those installations are still performing extremely well. I can show you gyms and homes the oak was installed in during the WPA days before air conditioning, before sealed buildings, and properly maintained still are beautiful.

Also, should the floor become damaged and there is no attic stock, oak replacement planks are readily available. I could go on and on, but I think someone is saying Tandy shut up.

Country Flooring Direct · July 5, 2009, 02:33 PM

my oak floor is dented from my wifes heels my ironwood (macaranduba) floor wasnt. Hardness matters. However, I sold a prefinished purple heart job a while ago and the guy complained because it showed more than his white oak sand and finish floor.

Hardwood dents it scratches buy what you like explain the benefits let them understand it dents it scratches. if it were impenetrable we couldnt nail it down.

GaryS · July 5, 2009, 03:23 PM

Tandy. Oak is the standard wood used here too probably for the same reasons.

Ken. the reason for the post is so that I can explain what the differences are.

countryflooringdirect. that information leads back to the original post on the janka hardness scale but thanks for the info it seems ipe as I would have expected does not dent the way oak will, purple heart would be an unusual choice because of the colour but it is interesting to note your comments on this particular floor cheers this is more the type of info I was looking for how specific floors perform.

FlooringGirl · July 7, 2009, 09:58 PM

Okay, let me throw this one out. A woman customer I've been dealing with for some time on other surfaces brought her sister in with her. They asked me what I thought about hardwood in a bathroom. A kid bath. My immediate response was that I felt wood and moisture and kids didn't mix well. Then the sister says she's had hardwood in her whole house, including the kid bath for many years and has no prob. Was I being tricked and attacked? Perhaps, but stuck to my guns. It isn't my recommendation - if you've had success, you must be one of those best and most particular housekeepers, keep-up-on-the-kids kind of women ever. She told her sister to consider my other options after that. Ewwww, I hate this kind of thing.

Tia

cproader · July 7, 2009, 10:07 PM

All ya can do is give them yer best advice and let it go at that.....bet if ya went to her house, you would find somethin she aint tellin ya, like what the rugs are coverin up.....