Jim Walker's seminar at Surfaces 2010

Isabella Flooring · February 4, 2010, 12:42 PM

Mondays seminar was 1 of the Best I have been too, The speakers where great, And I have to say this Jim Walker opened alot of Inspectors eyes, What a Show he presented, The Class really listened to him with all eye's and ears, He was just plain AWESOME in what he spoke about...

Brad

rgfloor · February 4, 2010, 03:47 PM

Isabella Flooring said

And I have to say this Jim Walker opened alot of Inspectors eyes, What a Show he presented, The Class really listened to him with all eye's and ears, He was just plain AWESOME in what he spoke about...

Brad

He is a SHOWman, that's for sure. So Brad, what did he talk about, for those of us who did not make it to Surfaces?

Tandy Reeves · February 4, 2010, 04:26 PM

I agree it would be nice to know what he said that is important to inspectors. Please share with us.

kwfloors · February 4, 2010, 09:30 PM

One of the things he brought up was the right way to latex and cut seams in carpet. Then he went on to say that in order to inspect a seam if it has sealer or not you have to take it apart and look at the edge. When he said that I knew that would be news to some inspectors. If an installer misses any part of a seam with latex it could be their problem if it was a seam issue. He was making CFI accountable for CFI installers because they are taught what to do. He is involved with the new ansi standards for installation book that the IICRC is making now and pointed out many bad rules in the 104 and 105 manuels.

Peter Kodner · February 5, 2010, 06:26 AM

Did he explain why or how he determined it must be taken apart or was this a statement? With all due respect, without knowing how he arrived at a conclusion they must be taken apart this is only an opinion.

Daris Mulkin · February 5, 2010, 08:17 AM

Peter I believe what he is referring to is if the sealer is applied correctly it will only be on the very edge of the carpet and not any on the top of the backing that would show up under black lite. The same would go for glue down. I have heard him say that many times if my memory serves me correctly. Also seaming latex most generally doesn't show up under black lite so it would have to be broken and felt for the rubber band affect to see if it is sealed on stretch in.

Daris

Peter Kodner · February 5, 2010, 09:26 AM

Daris, here is my problem with that: both the primary and secondary are to be covered. In seam issues I see, the primary begins raveling lone before the secondary. I have never found it necessary to cut the seam open to find distinct evidence of the presence of sealer. While I agree far too many inspectors think a black light is the only means to determine this, I use it a a final part of the process I employ and it serves only to additionally confirm, not to arrive at a conclusion. To an unknowledgeable (I think I just made this word up!) person, the fluorescing of the latex between the backings may be thought to be sealer. Many also are not aware that many sealers (particularly those for direct glue down) do not have UV tracers. Most latx sealers don't as well, but the latex will give a recognizable "signature" under UV

Without some substantial documentation, I do not accept Mr. Walker's statement as fact.

kwfloors · February 5, 2010, 09:12 PM

As Daris said, the latex if applied correctly would be only on the edge of the cut and not on top of the backing and onto the yarns. I think if latex is used, you can use a seam repair tool and peak the seam up to see the edges. If hot glue is used you would be pulling yarns from the opposite side if you did that because of the bonding of the edges. He also touched a bit on determining stretching of the carpet. What the back of the carpet would look like on the head and foot side of a stretcher.

Peter Kodner · February 6, 2010, 06:58 AM

KW, the standard states: "Seam adhesive must be applied in a manner that encapsulates both primary and secondary backings." (CRI 104). How do you encapsulate with the top of the primary not having sealer on it? I agree the yarn should not have sealer but it would not be prudent not to apply it to the top of the exposed primary even though this will be a small amount.

Let's talk about the "real world" so often referred to: how do you prevent any sealer from getting on the top? Run the risk of using too little sealer? If hot melt is used, they are definitely visible from the face. The additional reality is I have yet to seam a seam perfectly and completely butted along the entire length (other than a door or small seam). It is very easy to check for sealer in any gapped or overlapped areas.

Still in the "real world", the vast majority of problems I encounter where seams are the primary complaint are commercial glue downs. My procedure for checking these does vary from a stretch in job. On a tackless job, a seam repair stretcher would be helpful, but not necessary- at least I have not found it necessary to date. I have yet to have an installer argue a finding of sealer not being present when it has been pertinent to a report (if it is not pertinent, it does not get discussed in a report!).

Share the dope on checking for stretching! I may not agree (I am renowned for being an argumentative cuss), but I always want to be open for new information

mcbrides · February 6, 2010, 10:43 AM

Peter Kodner said

The additional reality is I have yet to seam a seam perfectly and completely butted along the entire length ...

Are you serious?

Peter Kodner · February 6, 2010, 11:44 AM

Unfortunately, yes I am. You do have to bear in mind what I do... I rarely see good mechanics work

In fact, I have called dealers several times to compliment an iinstallation and advise they do whatever they need to to hang onto the person! Had a few "Huh" responses to those calls too

The good installers also call the mill (or occasionally me) when they see the problem and don't wait until after they install it...

Curt Durand · February 6, 2010, 12:32 PM

Peter, agree with you fully. The seam sealer, whatever type, will be visible if it encapsulates the primary as required. A good inspector gets down and close up to inspect for sealer application. You sometimes need a magnifying glass to see it but it should be visible along the cut weft strands of the primary. You need to also inspect numerous locations along the seam in order to get a good feel as to the quality of the installers efforts. UV light alone is not a definite test for sealer application. Also agree that the chances of an installer to "perfectly" apply seam sealer to a longer seam is pracitally nill. Real world. Takes only one unencapsulated primary strand to start an unraveling. In a 12" seam there will be more than 1440 primary strands exposed by a seam cut. Odds are that a few could be missed. On glue down, the most common problem is that the seam sealer encapsulates the initial edge but no enough transfers into the seconf drops seam edge. Just finished an inspection where seam sealer was used but all of the sealed seams were unraveling on the same side of the seam throughout the install. You need to inspect for the mechanical results of the seam sealer application and not just that it was applied. Not enough adhesive and the carpet bubbles and wrinkles. Not enough seam sealer and the seam unravels.

rgfloor · February 6, 2010, 04:01 PM

Sorry if I am late to the party, I disagree with Mr Jim. In over 40 years of installing and inspecting I think I can tell if there is seam sealer without destroying the seam. I will also disagree with Peter and say that I have seen a "perfectly" sealed seam, I know a couple of installers who I would put up against anybody, and they do seal properly.

A good inspector has more than one tool to check for sealer
1. Eyeballs--with a magnifying glass.
2. UV light--again may need the magnification.
3. Hemostat--to open the tufts and hold them back to see down in. I prefer a 10 inch curved.
4. Double headed crab--to peak the seam and that tells a lot.
5. Sensative finger tips
6. EXPERIENCE--this is the best tool of all

This works well to find and hold the row open, giving me access to the seam cut.

Peter Kodner · February 6, 2010, 04:31 PM

rgfloor said

I will also disagree with Peter and say that I have seen a "perfectly" sealed seam,

Maybe some magnification is needed when reading too? I said butted, not sealed...

kwfloors · February 6, 2010, 08:47 PM

Well if my job was ever seam inspected with a crab it wouldn't peak at all. I really think that an inspector that is worth anything could take up and replace what was removed to original shape before the inspection. But I think there are some that have no installation experience to know how its done. I don't agree with everything Jim says but that comes from my experience with carpet and the tools I do the job with. There has to be a certified rule book so everyone gets on the same page on basic installation and I think the new book will do that because of the ansi rating and the cri standards will be secondary.