Our trade needs certifications.

[rusty baker]

Lo Down said ....... that said, the push for certification is only about having better installers.

I think for some it is only about making money for those doing the certifications.

[Tandy Reeves]

Please explain to me how a non-profit group could administer tests, grade tests, issue certificatons, keep records, police complaints, and respond to inquiries with no operating income. Also who would do all that work for living income (another name profit).

My thoughts are that this in no way would be a training group (that is a different matter). This would be for listing the certification of those that can pass a test and have the background training. This could come from training groups, or apprenticeship.

[rusty baker]

The mills could afford to hold certification tests at little or no cost at their distrbutors warehouses. But I am not convinced that they care whether installers are certified. Would being certified make the installer more money? It wouldn't in my part of the world.

[Tandy Reeves]

Would it be necessary to travel somewhere to get certification? How about the installer submitting a request for certification listing all their qualifications. After this information is reviewed, verified, approved or rejected advise the installer if they are approved or rejected. If approved advise them the tests are being sent to their local liberary, vo-tech, or high school, and they can go there to take the closed book test. The testing charge would be paid directly to the agency administering the test. The test would then be mailed back to the authority graded, and if passed certification issued. If failed the test could be retaken up to 3 times in one year.

Just some thoughts for consideration.

Wouldn't there be a chance for bias if issued by someone with a vested interest?

[rusty baker]

Tandy, lets compare this with auto mechanics, another trade with certified and non-certified. The dealers pay for their mechanics to be certified and in turn charge higher repair rates. The independent mechanics are generally not certified and charge less. In my area, the majority of auto repair is done at independent shops. The consumer, shops price first and doesn't care who is certified. They only go to the dealers for warranty work. Most of the indy shops would not profit a dime from being certified. And lets face it, we all work to make money. If certifications were offered at low cost here in my home town I would try it. But I can't see it happening. Isn't there a chance of bias now because the tests are issued by someone with a vested interest?

[Barry Carlton]

I also think "hands on" should be mandatory.

And why I do believe that there may be some ulterior motives, I think most of those who mentioned certification on this board do genuinely have the best interests of the industry, the installer, the retailer, and the customer.

[rusty baker]

Who is to say that the certified installer will do a better job? We all know people in all trades who cut corners to make money, even when they know better.
If the economy was better, I could walk into any retailer in the area and get work and they would not care about certification, even if it was mandated for warranty. In case of failure,
They would either charge it back to the installer or would have one certified installer and would list him as the installer of record on anything that had problems so it wouldn't void the warranty.

[Tandy Reeves]

Rusty my dad was an auto mechanic. Yes he had to go to school for certification for Ford, Chev, Dodge, or International. Most of the schools were three to four days. The dealers or factories paid for the school, but he missed three or four days of work (income). Plus if he went to a Ford school it did not mean squat to the other manufacturers. If he wanted their certification he went to their school.

There are fewer and fewer independent shops each year. Why? Because technology is passing them by because they cannot afford the equipment required to work on the modern day car. The day of repairing a car with bailing wire and a pair of pliers is gone. Also, the day is here that the installer without the proper training will follow the same path because of technology.

There will be those the resist and be simi-successful. Oh! if we could look into the future and know what to do. Remember they said those horseless carriages would never catch on.

[rusty baker]

When the day comes that there is a profit in being certified, it will happen. That will be long after I'm gone. And I was a Certified Toyota Mechanic 1970-72.

[Tandy Reeves]

It will only happen when installers make it happen. Time for this old coot to shut up.

[rusty baker]

Me too. I just kept hoping some of the younger guys would chime in. If this affects anyone, it will be them.

[Lo Down]

Tandy Reeves said It will only happen when installers make it happen. Time for this old coot to shut up.

Hey ya old coot, we like when ya talk, so don't stop.

I'm with Rusty. If a guy gets certified and does so just so he can get work............ he will not follow the practices he learned just because he was instructed to. A hack that becomes certified will go back to slappin and bangin it it... faster ya work the more ya make. Certifications will do absolutely nothing to stop that practice.

People make the mistake of trusting the stores to include installations with the product. From what we have read from stories told here, there are a lot of lowball scummy retailers out there. How do you police the installations if retailers were not required by law to use "certified" installers.
I see a logistics and bureaucratic nightmare if certification and policing were ever to become required.............. the government would certainly have to be running it all before all is said an done.

I'd much rather see a huge increase in available installation data and have it written and provided by the retailers and the industry. Have them foot the bill for providing the educational material.

Material could be available at the retailers store or provided online as regualr industry e-mailings if a person signs up for the newsletters.
CFI could provide that educational service almost for free since the data they have is already in existence. Just make it available in PDF form. .......but then that would take the $$$$ out of it for them wouldn't it?

They (manufacturers) want us to install it correctly I assume. I know they can afford it far more than most of us................ and besides, most of the cost done that way would be paper with words on it.............. not all that costly. Much more costly is travel, motels, time off work, and paid instructors at school locations (which need to be paid for also), schol materials, which add to the cost even further.
Once certified, annual fees????? Sounds like government. Buy a house and get taxed on it forever so you can never really own it free and clear.
I'm never gonna get sold on certifications............ so now it's time for this old coot in training to shut up. How am I doin' "coot wise" Tandy.

:edit:
if it was enacted, could I be jailed for not being certified?

[cproader]

rusty baker said I just kept hoping some of the younger guys would chime in. .

......ok, I'm here. Now what could I say that I haven't already said on this issue. Certification only profits manufacturing and cert orgs. Ok, I'm done......

[kwfloors]

And what about certifying salesmen and women while we're here. If you want to open a carpet store you can just do it. No past knowledge needed. As I have said before, every job needs inspected for certs to work correctly.

[Jim McClain]

I'm having a difficult time understanding the reluctance of so many flooring professionals to be educated and recognized for that education. And the idea that those doing the educating should be working for free. Can't we admit, even if it's just to ourselves, that we don't know it all? Do we have to be so arrogant that we can't accept that training and the merit system have been a part of civilized culture forever?

Or is it fear? Are we afraid of failure? Afraid that it will change the way we earn and compete for those earnings? Afraid that the investment we make won't pay off?

How did education affect you as a child? As a young adult? As a member of the working class? If you are anything like me, your attitude about education or training changed as you got older. For some, you pursued as much as you could. For others, you avoided it as much as possible.

I got into the floorcovering business for several reasons. The first reason was because it was the first job to come along that I liked better than going to college. I used it early on as an excuse to quit college (even though I did go back later on) because it paid better than the GI Bill and didn't require homework and study.

But something was missing. I became good at my trade, but there was no recognition for my skill. Of course, I didn't realize that many of the things I was learning were being taught by a hack with no proper training. But to his credit, he was also a lazy teacher and opted to send me to my first seminar to learn how to do something he would only admit to himself that he wasn't very good at.

That first seminar, all the attendees were given a piece of paper that said we completed the course and were qualified to do that particular task. It reminded me of the paper with a big gold star I got for something in grade school. It reminded me of the commendation I received in Explorer Scouts and the diploma I received when graduating high school and the certificate I got for learning how to read the crypto code books in the Army.

That certificate didn't come with any increase in pay right away. But it did give me a sense of pride and gave me encouragement to continue to improve my skills and knowledge. I appreciated the fact my employer wanted to send me to more seminars and classes. The best was the Armstrong Linoleum School that traveled to a location not too far from home. That certification did come with a pay boost.

Even after I left the employ of that first job in the flooring business, I continued with my education. Some was required, some was not. In California, you had to have a contractor's license. I had one through my former employer and had to retest to get my own after quiting and going out on my own (I never renewed after that and took a lot of crap from a few people who aren't certified for what they do - go figger).

I am not one who feels that the only good education is OJT. I'm really glad my first boss didn't think that way either, or I would have been a hack for most of my career. One thing I learned a very long time ago is that educators have a very difficult and demanding job. Those that opt to have their own job as independent educators/trainers/certifiers are running a business just like most other businesses. They have to be accredited, have overhead, insurance, tools and supplies - and have every right to earn a profit from that business as you and I. It amazes me when I see the numbers of flooring professionals, who demand or seek excellent compensation rates for what they do, think other businesses should operate at a loss.

Then there's the issue of economy. Education - good education - isn't cheap. The printed materials, the samples and supplies necessary for demonstration and hands-on, the video production, bookkeeping, administration - everything that goes into providing a quality course of education or certification has to be financially accounted for. I agree that some of the education could be subsidized by manufacturers, but the prevailing attitude about training among our brothers and sisters in the installation corp does not warrant their continued enthusiasm. We have failed them. They have given us all free and plentiful opportunities to learn, fed us, given away tools, yet attendance has been abysmal. We snub our noses at them because we already know. We are too good already. And we definitely don't want to go there and share our expertise with the local competition.

If you are in business for yourself, then it is your responsibility to educate yourself about business AND about your craft. I understand the economy we are experiencing now prevents many professionals from earning an optimum wage. These are times when other educational enterprises, like colleges and other schools get subsidization through sponsors and affiliates, government programs and other sources and the flooring industry schools and certifying bodies should too.

There should be a choice of schools and certifying organizations to select from. If you don't like one organization, you can go to another. Let the manufacturers and consumer groups decide which certifying bodies carry the most weight, but they should not prevent an organization from pursuing accreditation. Accreditation should be similar to how public and private schools in other educational fields get theirs. I don't think education is the sole responsibility of the manufacturer any more than you believe installation should be. Just as you have the opportunity to have your own installation company, trainers who are qualified should be able to have their own business - and profit from it.

Let's get past this "we know better than them" mentality. We don't. Every one of us has had to learn to get where we are. And I believe we have to continue to learn or we stagnate. So, someone has to step forward to teach. We should be recognized for what we learn. The more we are taught, the more we learn and the more we can pass on to others, like our customers.

Most people want the best they can afford. If they don't know there is a good/better/best in installation, they won't know to call you because you are in the better or best category. They will always call good because they think cheap is all that counts. They don't understand that good is too often poor quality. Unless you educate yourself in business, you will not be able to teach your customers why you are better or best.

As usual, I talk too much. But this kind of topic gets my passions about the flooring industry roiling.

Jim