Our trade needs certifications.

[cproader]

..............

[rusty baker]

cproader said ..............

Exactly.

[Bill Watson]

Thanks Jim.
I am one who would like to see more certifications.
I pursued and completed a lot of clinics, trainings, seminars and certifications throughout my installation career, and can tell you that I don't regret any of it.
Anyone who attends education or training classes regularly, knows the benefits, and will tell you that they were usually glad they went.

Some were expensive, and I had to travel a good distance to attend. At no time did I think it should be free. I understood that it took a lot of investment on the part of the certifiers/instructors in both time and money.

Did it get me more money? Actually in the long run, it did. I was the guy who could be called on for the more difficult jobs, fix others screw ups, and after a relatively short period of time, the one who got more work by word of mouth.
I ADVERTISED that I was an educated installer, and knew what I was doing.
I was never bashful about letting Mrs. Homeowner know that I was certified to install her floor. I can't count how many times that set a tone of confidence in her mind and made my job so much easier. Not to mention the times she told her sister, friend, or co-worker about me.
As for some of the manufacturer certifications, there was some very nice "insurance policies" that were available to me. They basically would pay for new material if I happened to screw one up.
With others, I came away with enough tools, etc to just about pay for the class. I always came away with new knowledge.

As a guy who's been knocking around this trade for 41 years ( well it will be the end of this month, anyway), I would and do always advise any younger installers to get as much formal training as they possibly can.
No one can take that away from you.

OK, turning the soap box over to someone else now.

[Barry Carlton]

Devil's Advocate here

Look at the likes of Lo, Rusty, and the ever great Dobby. They either are not certified, or they do not tout their certs.

But they are educated!!!!! And good. Should they be certified? By all means. After all they obviously do qualify.

They have spent the time and money learning their craft to at least meet if not exceed the requirements. Granted, a more structured course of education may have sped the process up that helped them arrive where they are at now, but, not till they wanted the education and were introduced to it.

We will always have those who do not care. But, if there are requirements and opportunities there will always be those like Lo, Rusty, Dobby, and many others here on this board and thoughout the country and world who will be sure to prove their education and experience. It does not need to cost a lot of money to certify those who are already educated and trained.

[Tandy Reeves]

Ok I'm talking again and it is Lo's fault. No doubt about it. Lo and Rusty both made a good comment about a hack getting certified and then go back to slapin and banging the flooring product in.

I see this orig. being setup and policed by installers and inspectors. I suggest that a pool of 35 to 50 installers be set up to review complaints on installers (could also include inspectors). It would work something like this. There is a complaint on an installer. The installer would be advised of the complaint. This could come from an inspection, a unhappy consumer, dealer, or mfg. Then out of this pool of 35 to 50, at least 5 would be randomly chosen to review the complaint. These 5 would then come to a decision and the installer would be advised of the decision The installer would then be given a chance to defend his/her actions. If justified, no foul, no harm. If they cannot or will not defend the complaint, their certification will be put on probation. If the same thing happens a second time, the certification will be revoked. Their name would remain on the certification list with the notation in large red print "CERTIFICATION REVOKED FOR NON-COMPLIANCE OF STANDARDS or something to that effect.

See there Lo its your fault.

[kylenelson]

Whenever laying floor becomes politcal, I'm out. Haha. I would love to be CFI certified, if only most of the places of training weren't so far away from MT. I think it's fine the way it is. If you become certified it gives you a business advantage if you are in an area with alot of other installers. I'm in an area that I know every single other floor layer around and have worked with about half of them at one point. Your reputation is all you need around here, not a card, or a decal that you can paint on your van. However, if I were to be in need of flooring in an area that I was unfamiliar with the installers I would naturally go for the CFI guy. So from that aspect I think it might be a good business advantage for the individual installer to be certified, if only for having a little advantage. And you know that a store is more likely to hire you on in a new area if you are certified. Not to mention that more than likely someone that's willing to go and spend money on a non-mandatory certification shows some initiative that they care about what they do.

Implementing this nationwide, especially in rural areas would be a challend unless it was absolutely mandatory by law and the training was offered free/cheaply.

Just a couple of thoughts.

[rusty baker]

Kyle, the training will never be free or cheap, there's too much money to be made doing it.

[Tandy Reeves]

Let me clear up one false idea that has been brought up many times. The huge amount of money being made by training groups.

Some of the expenses in training.
1. Expense of writing and printing of training material. Cost of paper, binders, cost of equipment or hiring it printed.

2. Cost of training location. (Very expensive)

3. Cost of travel (Flying or driving expensive)

4. Cost of instructors (includes a stipen, travel and lodging)

5. Cost of advertising

6. Refreshments

7. Lodging and food

8. Freight round trip for training material and supplies

9. Training equipment (projectors, computers, hands on training tools)

10. I am sure I have left something out

How do I know these expenses? I know them because I owned FITS and have held these classes from Las Vegas to New York. I have written the checks and my guess is the profit margin is less than that of most installers, and my classes were priced below $1,000.00 each.

[Barry Carlton]

Sorry to be such a post monger.

Certifications and trainings are 2 completely different animals. Those who would need certs. would ideally have the training to pass the certs.

[Lo Down]

Jim..... how about we just require all flooring installers in the nation join TFP.............. now that's how ya get a good education.

[rusty baker]

My dad was made a journeyman in the carpenter's union simply because of his experience. All the young guys had to go thru an apprenticeship. Why not do that for installers?

[Tandy Reeves]

Lo that is not a bad idea. Have TFP be the base to the tests, grading, record keeping, index for finding certified installer, in other words the mother ship. Each application for certification would have a non refundable price that has to accomplish the application. Also, TFP has no vested interest and is completely neutral.

Oh! you say some do not like Jim. Well that is tough. The person everyone likes does not exists.

[Tandy Reeves]

Rusty I will give you three questions and take back to so you can guess which two old coots are talking again.

[rusty baker]

Tandy, the dog ate my homework.

[Daris Mulkin]

I have been going to keep my mouth shut on this cause I know it will turn into a pissin match no matter what.
But for those who think the certifiers get paid think again. Its free with the exception we do have our hotel and plane or travel expenses paid. No more! We even buy our own meals except lunch on Sat. Its voluntary by us.
The only time I am paid is for a Lowe's training or a Karastan training. I have done approximately 135 training certifications on my own time. That is 3 days counting travel time, that is about 1 full year of volunteering and there are people who have done more.
The cost for the first 2 catagories is $290 for R-1 and C-1 and $290 each for the upper 2. Master II is another thing you have to travel for it if not in your area. That is 3 days hands on done once a year usually in Fort Wayne, Ind. but can be done elsewhere wherever the modules are close to. Salt Lake City is another location.
And Tandy is right CFI is a nonprofit organization.
Now that is all I'm going to say on the subject. Nobody is getting rich more the other way around.

Daris