Our trade needs certifications.

[Jim McClain]

cproader said ..............

rusty baker said Exactly.

Exactly what??? Maybe I'm just dense, but smilies and dots, without any words, make no sense to me. I prefer to read an opinion, even if it's in deference to my own.

Bill Watson said ...Did it get me more money? Actually in the long run, it did. ...I ADVERTISED that I was an educated installer, and knew what I was doing. ...

Advertising. Don't get me started in that direction. It's a fundamental aspect of business. Many installers do not understand business basics. I know I didn't when I first went into business. All these claims about being educated or certified and it not helping your bottom line is sometimes just blustering for nothing. Being an independent installer is much more than just knowing how to install. Independent means being in business, which means it's important to know a little about business too.

Even when an installer doesn't sell, they have to sell themselves. A good sales person educates the customer so that they learn they need the installer and why. The retailer certainly won't do that for you. Neither will the manufacturer or anyone else. It's your business, you have to do your own selling.

I spent a good portion of my flooring career as an independent installer - I'm not talking about when I was doing retail sales or being employed for another store. All I did was installations. I had to sell that service and I had to convince my customers that I was a better choice than the "free installation" that was being advertised by big boxes and chain retailers. I had to sell myself over my competitors who always went for the jugular - we are cheaper, therefore better. I live in a small rural area with not very much competition, but my customers were all too willing to buy from Home Depot, Lowe's and Robbins Furniture, all of which were 70 or 80 miles away and offered anywhere from free to ultra cheap installations. There was at least one independent installer in each of the small towns with a population of 2,000 or more and all of them did installs for far less than me. I was as busy as I wanted to be, sometimes way busier than I wanted to be. I could be booked for months in advance. And my business didn't just come from rich folks who remodeled their homes, I did the flooring for a good number of building contractors. One of my customers is now my landlord and that guy was an admitted "slipshod builder" and bought everything he could based on price. He used me because the other installers, although considerably cheaper, always cost him more in call-backs and other problems. In some cases, I was twice the original cost, but a much better financial investment because I did the job right and always showed up on schedule and completed the job on time.

Don't tell me you can't get more money. I got more even in tough times. Four years after retiring because of health, I still get the occasional call to do work for an old customer - they didn't know I can't do it anymore.

barrycarlton said ...Look at the likes of Lo, Rusty, and the ever great Dobby. They either are not certified, or they do not tout their certs. ...

David used to do training. He held woven classes and also volunteered for certifications when he was a member of CFI. I'm not sure if he charged for woven classes, but I am sure he can tell us how expensive it is to do a class. I also don't know if he offered a certificate of completion, but I have no doubt it would be a prize any installer would be proud to hang on their wall - and use as a sales tool.

kylenelson said ... Implementing this nationwide, especially in rural areas would be a challend unless it was absolutely mandatory by law and the training was offered free/cheaply.

I think it would be a shame to have certifications mandatory. There will always be installers that will not get certified, for whatever reason. I would hate for this to make them criminals or scofflaws. Enforcement would also be quite a headache. I've been harsh with installers, so let me pay equal time to consumers: If a consumer is foolish enough to do no research into the products or services they need, they deserve the problems they may get with untrained, under-educated, non-certified installers. I can't tell you how frustrated I get with the customer that has a cheaper is better attitude.

rusty baker said Kyle, the training will never be free or cheap, there's too much money to be made doing it.

Rusty, installations will never bee free or cheap. There's too much money to be made doing it. Does that sound any more plausible? Big boxes and chain retailers have been giving away installations for eons. Flooring manufacturers have been giving away training for eons. I don't see either stopping those practices because it helps them sell what they really make their money on.

Tandy Reeves said Let me clear up one false idea that has been brought up many times. The huge amount of money being made by training groups. Some of the expenses in training. 1. ...

But you are counting on everyone reading this understanding business accounting, overhead, cost analysis, etc. I think you know there will be those who will look at your list and say "bullshit." If it's paper or computer work you are doing, it ain't work and therefore has no cost basis.

barrycarlton said Certifications and trainings are 2 completely different animals. Those who would need certs. would ideally have the training to pass the certs.

I agree. I think there should be a way to allow installers to get certifications without the training as long as they can show a proficiency and knowledge in the particular discipline. This would reduce their cost. I don't agree with the philosophy that a certifying agency should require the training be obtained from them in order to be certified by them. If the installer can show he or she has the necessary skill and understanding to pass the testing, they should be certified. There are plenty of other occupations that have certifying or testing organizations that do it this way. Specifically, contractor licensing - licensing boards do not conduct training classes, they only test the knowledge and/or skill that was obtained elsewhere. Lawyers, cosmetologists, accountants and all sorts of other occupations have this facility. Flooring certifications can be done the same way.

Lo Down said Jim..... how about we just require all flooring installers in the nation join TFP.............. now that's how ya get a good education.

Contrary to what Tandy suggests, I don't see that happening. I have to twist arms to get my staff to generate more topics in the inspections forum, more discussions in some of the public forums, can't seem to get flooring professionals to take advantage of free advertising in our PRO Directory, can't get pros to add training events to the Calendar and find it nearly impossible to discourage members from posting only smilies or endless lines of *** and ..... It is becoming clear to me that most everyone here only wants a message board. Screw all the great technological advances and features this friggin' expensive software provides us. A platform that helps us be more organized, focused and professional is not all that in demand. We just wanna place to vent our frustrations, no structure, no bells an' whistles and certainly no one suggesting we can do more than just be some anonymous installer somewhere in the Ether.

Daris Mulkin said ...those who think the certifiers get paid think again. Its free with the exception we do have our hotel and plane or travel expenses paid. No more!

We aren't just talking about CFI certification, Daris. There are other organizations that do "certifications" (licensing is a form of certification, manufacturers offer certificates of completion, etc.). Some of them do get paid, some very well. Some say that the leaders of some certifying organizations get paid while their staff do not. I am one who is not privy to the inner workings of any of those organizations, so am unable to determine if what they get, if anything, is too much or not enough. Maybe there are some here who know better. Maybe there are those who just like to think they know.

Tandy Reeves said ...Oh! you say some do not like Jim. Well that is tough. The person everyone likes does not exists.

Oh c'monnnn. I thought ever'one liked me - well, except for maybe one or two... oh, an' there's that other guy... wait, then there's...







Oh shit, there actually is a bunch of people that don't like me. Okay, I knew that. I've known that for a really long time. Heck, sometimes I don't even like me. But after nearly 4 years of TFP, people here should realize they don't have to like me to take advantage of what TFP has to offer any flooring professional who wants it. There's a handful of rules to follow, but none of them make it difficult in the least for flooring professionals from every segment of the industry and every skill level to network, find education, improve their business and socialize with others. It's all free except for the rules (but apparently even that was too expensive for a few people). But I am very grateful to those who enjoy spending time here, even if they don't like me.

Jim

[rgfloor]

A little insight on training. It is never free!! Last week as some of you know I arranged for a training from a major mill, as it turned out because of the weather it did not happen. But in a conversation with the trainers this is what I gleaned.

Send a skid of tools, traing materials and equipment from Dalton, Ga. To Pittsburgh Pa Compamy truck, but it still cost something.
Two instructors airline tickets from Dalton to Pitt, PaI checked. $255 each

1 night at the Hampton Inn 99.00
1 car rental 50.00
expenses/meals ??? 100.00
They were providing food for the group at noon 100.00

All told close to 1000.00, when bad weather forced the cancellation, the first thing they said was "will you let us schedule this in a couple of weeks?"

The cost to the 25 installers that are coming $0.00.

The training is there if you ask for it, and yes this class will get the guys a Certified Installer Certificate. But the best thing is it will give them extra skills that will be useful in their trade.

I am also going to a Konecto class in the next couple of weeks. It is a one day class for $99.00 you get a roller and lunch. Plus for the installers they get a $1000 material credit if a job they do fails. Will they get paid more? I would think they could market themselves as an accredited installer who is cover for material if a failure occurs, along with this ask for .10 cents a foot extra (call it insurance if you want).

Is training necessary? Absolutely, Certification in my opinion should be a marketing tool. If you base it on the business model of C1 stores it does seem to have its benefits. I would think that a retailer could really pump it up, require all his crews to be trained and certified and advertise that fact to his customers. Let them know it will cost more but have it's benefits. I think Roland will tell you that it works!

[Jon Scanlan]

Jim that would have taken you awhile. I agree with you 99.9%
While NZ is smaller we do have the same problems with all the building trades that don't have to be registered. The trades that are basically as people think the "DIY" like painting, wallpapering, certain types of flooring etc are open slather to anybody. Example, someone that picked up that paint brush today is a painter tomorrow. The Government was talking about making anybody that was working on buildings had to be either an apprentice or a qualified tradesman. Builders here, even those ones that have been building for 30 years are going to have to be registered shortly. If the builders don't get registered they would only be able to do minor alteration work, no building houses etc. I can see this rubbing off to other trades. If the builder is paying, organising the trades say the painter, would the painter have to be registered to keep this follow through effect? You know how these things start snowballing for the wrong reasons? As I understand it if the customer pays the painter its a different ball game and the painter would not have to be registered. This goes along for us flooring people

[BrianM]

rusty baker said My dad was made a journeyman in the carpenter's union simply because of his experience. All the young guys had to go thru an apprenticeship. Why not do that for installers?

Why not do what for installers?

There've always been ways to buy in to the union as a journeyman for those who can walk in, pass the journeyman test and find their own employment. It helps if the Business Agent is your brother-in-law (you wont even have to pass the test). Seriously though, they pretty much HAVE to accept you by law if you can pass the test. What they don't have to do is give you full access to the same benefits as those who have attended the school. Years ago I recall they had an "A" list and a "B" list from which employers would choose when requesting workers from the eligible-for-employment list. I don't know if that's changed but lots of guys could hire on directly through the shops, go down the hall pass the test and be working union the next day with full benefits. Shops could even hire you and pay you full wages if you couldn't pass the test so long as you paid the initiation fee and your dues. Should you ever fall out of work and show up down the hall looking for a job they would classify you as a "B" list journeyman. I seriously doubt any shop ever hired anyone off that list, not that I have any way of keeping track of such things. Just a hunch.

[Tandy Reeves]

Barry did you get the message I sent you?

[Barry Carlton]

Tandy, I PM'ed you.

I think this is an important topic for another reason:Carpet Row Cutting Video

I know this is carpet but I also am sure that certs could avoid the issue of payment for not installing damaged or flawed products. It is done in other areas of the trade such as Armstrong Certified Installer Program Expanded

Certifications can be good for all involved. Granted Armstrong does not pay a true full days wage, but it is something. And a really good faith step in the right direction. It is not new and has been around for at least 5 years. If it didn't work for them, the installers, and the retailers they would have discontinued it long ago.

Another reason to be certified.

I got mine for lino and commercial for less than $100.00. I had to pass a written test and a hands on test. If I did not pass...no cert.

It really does work!!!!

[Professional flooring I]

Wow this is intence , i think my head is still spinning from ready all the post. there are strong points made by both sides on this discussion . On one hand i would agree on the ideal of certifications ,on the other i am against.

when i got my certification for lino , it was a five day course and it was definatley challenging. and yes i lost a week of work and guess what while i was in school someone else was making the money i really needed to make.

that being said i believe that certification can be important. just on the fact that it shows ( on paper ) that a person has the ability to properly work with a product. but at the same time it is up to the installer to take pride in his or her work to do the job the right way. I do share some of the same concerns shared in some of the previous post

dont get me wrong , i am in the business of installing flooring for the money but i also still enjoy what i do. to me these are the main reasons i still do installations.

in the end a certificate is just a piece of paper . it is up to the individual to hold his or her standards to the same level of workmanship that got them that certification..

[Dobby Tappet]

I would like to go on the record and say; I am opposed to certification. Why? The CFI is the perfect example. You can all have the best ideas with the best of intentions, but until the political corruption, and the ability of the whole to be exploited by a few, can be kept in check, the idea of a meaningful certification is, at best, an interesting discussion. Nothing more.

What our trade needs is business acumen and an real understanding of the word profit, how it is defined, achieved and retained.

That's all I will say on this subject.

Respectfully,

Dobby

[rusty baker]

Eloquent, precise and to the point, as always. Dobby.

[davegarden]

Mr. Tappet you must know something about CFI that I do not. I understand people not liking certifications in a trade that does not require a high school diploma to get started. You are correct our trade really does need to understand what profit is and what the average installer is actually making. Who is out there providing the answers and trying to educate the installers though? As far as i can see, only CFI.

As far as exploiting a certification goes, I thought thats what they were for. I put it on every quote. I wear my badge every day. It is part of how I sell myself. It works!

I have gotten to know many of the volunteers who give up there time to help other installers understand what running a business is all about, I am proud to call these people friends.

Are their people who become somewhat misguided with their personal agenda. Yes I am sur they are out there. But if I found out someone I knew was doing this, I believe I would call them out on it. Part of being with any organization is not only having a voice but using it.

I am sure you are great at what you do. You certainly sound smarter than most and I do enjoy hearing what you have to say. As a high school underachiever I needed someone to provide answers that I was not getting from my shop. CFI helped give me those answers. When I look at our industry today I see alot of young me's. If i could I would help every one of them so they wouldn't have to go through what I went through in not only learning this trade, but how to run a business. CFI is the only organization that attempts this as far as I know.

[Jim McClain]

Let's keep this discussion focused on the need (or not) of certifications, NOT on any particular certification body. To say that a single certification body is the reason why we don't need certifications is like saying we don't need banking because of Citigroup. There are many sought after certifications: NWFA, CTEF, IICRC, FCITS, many state contractor licensing boards, individual manufacturer sponsored programs (Forbo, Armstrong, etc.) and other sponsored and private training and certifying organizations.

You will find good and bad among them, some staffed by respected industry leaders, some run by people you don't respect. There will be programs that just work, some that have many failings. But don't politicize the issue. It's about training and being recognized for the accomplishment. We're not going to discount certification for flooring installers just because a few people think CFI is bad any more than we are going to shutter all the public school systems just because a handful of people think the District of Columbia has the worst school system in America.

Let's keep this discussion moving forward, not mired in the bashing or cheerleading for any particular certifying body.

Jim

[Tandy Reeves]

That is why I advocate the training body should be different than the certifying body.

The certifying body should administer the test, issue the certification, and police the certification. It should not be a non profit group, because a non profit cannot cancel certifications for cause.

[davegarden]

Do we want the government controlling certifications or do we need to regulate this ourselves? If the government steps in it will cost everyone from the mills to the end user. If we do this ouselves we will need to actually put faith into somebody or somebody's.

[Peter Kodner]

Tandy Reeves said That is why I advocate the training body should be different than the certifying body. The certifying body should administer the test, issue the certification, and police the certification. It should not be a non profit group, because a non profit cannot cancel certifications for cause.

Tandy, what is the source of this statement? What bearing does for or non=profit have to do with certifications? The American Red Cross certifies lifeguards and they are nonprofit.

[Dobby Tappet]

Power struggles and personal agendas are a major problem in any organization that seeks to relegate, or otherwise channel the responsibility of supervision of many, to a few. My reference to an installation organization was done because installation certification is the topic. With this said, the organizations that have sought to certify inspectors have been caught up in the same struggles with different names. Which is why we now have at least four different certifying bodies for inspectors all stemming from a common start point.

For five years I served as a chair person on our town's local July 4th activities and the very same control issues arose. From the committee member who sold burgers and fries secretly excluding other food vendors from participation to the member extorting the fire work vendor for a 'free fireworks' kickback for his own personal use.

The condition to which I refer is not exclusive to the installation community, it is a condition of human nature. The idea of certification is great concept, it is the administration of the certification that becomes the sticky-wicket.

Self-government can not work without self-discipline and self-discipline can never be achieved by committee.

Hopefully this provides greater clarity on my post above.

Respectfully,

Dobby