Our trade needs certifications.

Jim McClain · February 17, 2010, 06:09 PM

Isabella Flooring said

...ICFI is finally comming into play alot more here on the west coast...

I'm not familiar with ICFI. Can you give us more info?

Jim

Isabella Flooring · February 17, 2010, 06:23 PM

Hmmmm, ICFI is CFI Jim

International floorcovering Installers Association.

Known in the Industry as CFI

Jim McClain · February 17, 2010, 06:34 PM

Oh, okay. I thought you were talking about another organization. Yeah, Certified Floorcovering Installers only use the initials CFI.

Isabella Flooring · February 17, 2010, 06:54 PM

Thats weird I have 2 Jackets from them and decals that say ICFI on them that came from the CFI CONVENTIONS.

Jackreed · February 17, 2010, 07:04 PM

Jim McClain said

Although a lot of uncertified, unlicensed installers do know about those things, the consumer can take comfort in knowing that an installer that is licensed or certified is guaranteed to know. But the consumer won't know the difference between a certified installer and a hack installer unless someone educates them.

You are certified and operate an installation business. You sell yourself for 95 cents per square foot to install basic cut pile carpet. You have to charge that because you have overhead, insurance, you seal seams and use a power stretcher among other reasons.

Your competitor offers basic carpet installation for 55 cents per square foot. He isn't certified and takes a lot of shortcuts because the economy is bad and he wants to beat you to the job.

The professional installer cannot afford to be complacent. He cannot sit idle while expecting the retailer or manufacturer to sell you as the better choice. He dare not expect the consumer to learn all that's necessary to have the materials installed to any kind of standards. It's your job because no on can help you succeed like you can.

Jim

Where does this put the uncertifiedied installer that follows all the standards and tries every chance to sell himself that way. Is he a certified installer or a hack installer? Where does that put the uncertified installer who follows the standards and only gets the .55 cents per square ft (like other installers in his area)? Define professional? Does a professional installer need to be certified? Can he be self educated by going to classes that offer no certifacation, or by reading manufactuers specs and following CRI standards. My Wife just read my post and says I am certified. Certifiable for being in this business For 36 years. But it has been fun.

Isabella Flooring · February 17, 2010, 07:42 PM

JackReed,

How about this, When going to a doctor do you want to see a MD or a P.A. Who's mor qualified and why??????

RN vs LVN, Most of the Doctors out their now a days are getting Phd's in another country, as we all know the CRI 104 and 105 DOES NOT exsist anymore, As of
October 1, 2009 it is ref. as CRI CARPET INSTALLATION STANDARDS, and them are MIN. Standards in the industry untill the S 600 with the ansi spec comes into play. And Once again that is Just Bare Min.

rusty baker · February 17, 2010, 07:48 PM

Being certified doesn't mean you are more qualified. It just means you took a test and passed. There are many very good installers who aren't certified.

Isabella Flooring · February 17, 2010, 08:01 PM

Here another way to look at it,

A true Journeyman would go thru a 4 year appreticship (excuse the spelling) Just because you have 4 or more years does not consider you being a Journeyman,

If you call yourself a Journeyman, I would ask you for your card.....

Their are other programs out their, INSTALL is one. These program and Certs. all good for everyone, Mills Retailors and Installer, As I have said before, Here in Central and southern Calif. there are people installing rug (carpet for $1.65 $1.75) a yard, and they are heading eastward do to no work.

rusty baker · February 17, 2010, 08:09 PM

Journeyman is a union term. There are no carpet installation unions in this part of the U.S.

FlooringGirl · February 17, 2010, 08:10 PM

My two cents, for what it's worth these days

Certification is a very interesting topic, and there are all sorts of ways to look at it (as we have seen).

Personally, I think there many different ways to learn something and also to show how well you've learned it. We all know people with a college degree who aren't really familiar with any of the hands-on work they are expected to perform by having that diploma, and in addition we're all familiar with those who are talented enough to do a great job at something with little or no formal training.

It was mentioned that there are still some installers who don't seam seal or power-stretch, and that is a fact. A certification will not make them do these things if they don't take pride in the end result of their workmanship. I think it's more important to be able to say you "follow the CFI guidelines" than to say you have CFI certification. There is a big difference between showing you know them and doing them.

Educating customers about the installation process isn't realistic. Consumers are usually so overwhelmed by the major purchase they are making, that just knowing you are sending good installers with proven track records is enough. People tune out when things are brought up that they don't understand about the installation process - they just want to know it will be done well, not the details of how.

There have been mentions about certifying salespeople and retailers not knowing about or understanding things. Although there is a valid point there, the latter statement seems rather stereotypical. In any case, what kind of certification would you suggest the salespeople have? Floor covering, sales, installation, all of the above?

Long before before becoming a flooring salesperson, I studied interior design (in a silly little home study course when the kids were little), which certainly didn't prepare me for this profession, just helped me land the job ... it was learned on the fly after starting, with no one to train me. If anyone looked at my grades from the school, they would see that I did great, but was terrible at mixing paint to make specific colors. Does this mean I'm bad with colors? No, it means I was bad at mixing paint! My current portfolio has certifications for training about carpet cushion, Stainmaster, Mohawk, on and on. All those really mean is that a class was attended.

My coworker has a college degree in marketing and sales, but she has no ability to read a customer. She says the same thing to everybody. On the other hand, I get along with all realms of people and treat every one in a different way, in a manner they relate to. Some things can't be replaced by an education.

Lastly, but most importantly, most of you know that my husband is an installer. Tommy left school in the 8th grade to become one. That does not mean he isn't very intelligent. He does complex flooring calculations in his head, it's amazing. And, he follows all the CFI guidelines. He does have certification from Milliken in laying carpet tiles from years ago, but says the weekend was a blur because of all the free booze. Fact - he is a pro who doesn't need a paper to prove it.

He has worked alongside some of our other "really good" installers and comes home to tell me what they don't do that they should be doing. So yes, I do believe it is a retailer's responsibility to make sure certain things are being done by their subs, or at least that they are both buying and using certain supplies.

Off to another forum, I have a question ...

Tia

Nick Arrera · February 17, 2010, 08:15 PM

Isabella Flooring said

Here another way to look at it,

A true Journeyman would go thru a 4 year appreticship (excuse the spelling) Just because you have 4 or more years does not consider you being a Journeyman,

If you call yourself a Journeyman, I would ask you for your card.....

Their are other programs out their, INSTALL is one. These program and Certs. all good for everyone, Mills Retailors and Installer, As I have said before, Here in Central and southern Calif. there are people installing rug (carpet for $1.65 $1.75) a yard, and they are heading eastward do to no work.

For a buck sixty five i wouldn't be in the trade .

rusty baker · February 17, 2010, 08:19 PM

The retailers here wouldn't use anyone who would work for $1.65.

Isabella Flooring · February 17, 2010, 08:41 PM

Let me tell you, a retailor is looking at bottom line......If a CFI certified installer felt he could make it on $1.65, and the Installer had a great track record with Great references,

YES, the retailor would use them, I have read in alot of fourms(postings) pricing has been going down on installation part.....

Alot of the Mills are doing their own Installation seminars, Shaw is one, Mohawk with Mohawk U. I even beleive blowyou is even starting.

Being on several Consensus Boards, I beleive it will be a Standard to have a Certain type of Certifacation, Being from a Mill or some type of program.

Do you have a non-cert. plumper do your plumbing, what about a electrition which one do you prefer Lic. Certified or Jack of all trades......,

TIA, That is the biggest problem in the Industry, Retailor not educating the consumer, Just like P.E.T with smartstrand and Dupont Smartstrand, Their is a BIG difference, if you know what I am saying.....

Jackreed · February 17, 2010, 08:50 PM

Isabella Flooring said

JackReed,

How about this, When going to a doctor do you want to see a MD or a P.A. Who's mor qualified and why??????

RN vs LVN, Most of the Doctors out their now a days are getting Phd's in another country, as we all know the CRI 104 and 105 DOES NOT exsist anymore, As of
October 1, 2009 it is ref. as CRI CARPET INSTALLATION STANDARDS, and them are MIN. Standards in the industry untill the S 600 with the ansi spec comes into play. And Once again that is Just Bare Min.

I disagree with camparing the medical field to floorcovering. It's like comparing apples and eggs. I do see both PA. and DRs. One no more than the other. I have an old 2002 manual that calls the CRI installation " standards". This brings up the question if they are just that standards how can you certif installers by them. How can flooring inspectors call a flooring faliure installer error if not followed. If maufacturers specs overide CRI what good are they. If you have one certifing organization what good is it. If each manufactures specs "rule" wouldn't you need to be certified by each manufactrer. When Duraceramic first came out a customer asked me to install. I told them I wouldn't do it till I went to a seminar on it. They waited a month for me to go. No certifaction came with it can a DR or Pa do that. No they need a piece of paper saying they passed. That's why I think the only good certifacation should come from a manufacturer.

rusty baker · February 17, 2010, 08:54 PM

Actually, I replumbed and rewired my own house. Completely legal here. And outside the city limits, there are no codes. I am the only licensed installer in my area. Dosn't make a bit of difference when it comes to working.