Our trade needs certifications.

[Isabella Flooring]

Okay I agree, How about this,

I sit on a Board For the California Contractors Board as a Subject Matter Expert their was a Quardriplegic that past the C-15 flooring exam last month, In all eyes in Calif. he's is Lic. to Install floor covering, Is he certified???? CFI, INSTALL and other programs are not just a test with question and answer, you must show you are capable with hands on training....

Who would you choose CFI installer or The Quardriplegic and way, Or Lets get back to the Medical feild,

MD, LVN or RN, who would you have inject a medication in you, The MD RN or LVN, they are all Certified, would it be the One that you could afford???????

In all, what I am saying is Certifacations keep the ball feild level and pricing in the ball park

[Dobby Tappet]

There is a huge difference between being licensed by a governmental agency, as with a plumber or electrician who must practice their trade in compliance with established building codes / standards, not to mention the coupling of associated insurances and a floor covering installer. A better trade to compare with a floor installer would be a paper hanger or painter.

Come on folks, no one is at risk for bodily injury or extensive property damage if a seam is not sealed or the tack strip is too far away from the wall. But wire a home improperly and the consequence can be deadly. Improperly install plumbing and the property damage can easily be in the tens of thousands of dollars. The comparison is a stretch even a power stretcher couldn't make.

The only comparison more laughable is comparing floor certification to holding a medical license. I was certified as a CFI Master Installer in a single day. That hardly compares with four years of college preparation, plus three years of medical school, plus a year or more of internship and this does not even include specialization in specific areas. All this, on top of the potential life altering damage that can occur when a medical error occurs hardly compares with the damage realized from an improper or inferior floor installation.

Whether you are for certification or not, proper installation is important. But please, let's at least be a little bit realistic about the comparisons.

Respectfully,

Dobby

[Isabella Flooring]

I will agree Dobby comparing, But I would like to Correct you about the govermental agency here in Calif. is the same be it Doctor. beautician lawyer, We all in Calif. have to test with the Consumers Affairs. With education in mind I will let you know, that it is faster cheaper to receive a PHd in another country then it is here in the United States, It is happing everyday here.

I apologize for going to far in comparing

[FlooringGirl]

Isabella Flooring said Let me tell you, a retailor is looking at bottom line......If a CFI certified installer felt he could make it on $1.65, and the Installer had a great track record with Great references, YES, the retailor would use them, I have read in alot of fourms(postings) pricing has been going down on installation part..... Alot of the Mills are doing their own Installation seminars, Shaw is one, Mohawk with Mohawk U. I even beleive blowyou is even starting. Being on several Consensus Boards, I beleive it will be a Standard to have a Certain type of Certifacation, Being from a Mill or some type of program. Do you have a non-cert. plumper do your plumbing, what about a electrition which one do you prefer Lic. Certified or Jack of all trades......, TIA, That is the biggest problem in the Industry, Retailor not educating the consumer, Just like P.E.T with smartstrand and Dupont Smartstrand, Their is a BIG difference, if you know what I am saying.....

We bought and remodeled our home two years ago and had a wonderful jack-of-all-trades redo the plumbing and electrical, he also gutted and rebuilt the entire main bath, took out a supporting wall between the kitchen and laundry and restructured it to make one big room, etc. We trusted him and he did not fail us. The only time a license came into play was when my insurance agent said I could get a homeowner's discount for certain things if they were done by a licensed person. Being honest, I had to say that wasn't the case. But, it's all done right, and saved us lots of money. We paid him $15 an hour for almost 7 months of full weeks. He was happy, so are we.

Not to say I would ever hire a carpet installer for $1.65, because if that's all he thinks he's worth, then that shows a mindframe. And for that price, that's probably just the value you'll get.

You missed my point on educating the customer - I educate them about the flooring all day long, but they don't want educated on the installation, they just want to know it will be done right.

Tia

[Jim McClain]

Jackreed said Where does this put the uncertifiedied installer that follows all the standards and tries every chance to sell himself that way. Is he a certified installer or a hack installer?

I am not advocating mandatory certification and I hope that idea doesn't get much momentum. There are plenty of pros in situations that certification isn't either necessary or wanted. I don't want to take choices away from an installer, I want them to have more choices. I do, however, think it's short-sighted of any independent installer with credentials of any kind to think they don't have to use those credentials as a sales tool in their business. Too many relegate their certifications to nothing more than decorations to hang on a wall or uniform.

Where does that put the uncertified installer who follows the standards and only gets the .55 cents per square ft (like other installers in his area)?

Sorry, this topic is about certifications, not pricing. I'd love to discuss that in a different topic, if you or someone else will start it.

Define professional? Does a professional installer need to be certified? Can he be self educated by going to classes that offer no certifacation, or by reading manufactuers specs and following CRI standards.

I can only offer my opinion of what a professional is or isn't. You'll find there are many different opinions in this regard, so mine carries no more or less weight that the next guy. But my experience happens to be that I felt I ran a very professional business for a long time, yet I was not licensed. It was required and I should have renewed my license, which may make me somewhat less than professional. But I had a few minor certifications over the 35 years of my career and I conducted myself with professionalism and provided my customers with quality work and backed it by always taking care of problems. I'm not against self-taught or OJT, but I also believe that organized certification, training and professional associations should be a definite advantage and if the industry worked the way it should, consumers would learn that their best value comes from an installer who is well trained, accountable and professional.

FlooringGirl said Educating customers about the installation process isn't realistic.

If you are referring to what I suggested, you should read it again. I did not suggest that the installer explain or educate the consumer on installation procedures. I suggested that the installer should use their face time to sell their service as a trained and certified professional. As a retailer/consultant, you don't have to explain to the customer how material is manufactured, just that it meets their needs, is warranted for specific performance standards and is styled an/or colored in a way that is better/worse than the alternative. The installer has similar requirements to close their sale, but they certainly don't have to provide more information than is necessary. As you know, this is something that isn't always easy to determine. But far too many installers rest on their laurels. They don't know how to sell their craft to their customer, whether that's the end user or a retailer or a workroom. That's why I asked if marketing was a part of any training or certification for the installer. I know it is for retailers, but I never found that kind of instruction in any installation related class I ever took. That to me is a serious omission.

Jim

[FlooringGirl]

Jim McClain said If you are referring to what I suggested, you should read it again. I did not suggest that the installer explain or educate the consumer on installation procedures. I suggested that the installer should use their face time to sell their service as a trained and certified professional. As a retailer/consultant, you don't have to explain to the customer how material is manufactured, just that it meets their needs, is warranted for specific performance standards and is styled an/or colored in a way that is better/worse than the alternative. The installer has similar requirements to close their sale, but they certainly don't have to provide more information than is necessary. As you know, this is something that isn't always easy to determine. But far too many installers rest on their laurels. They don't know how to sell their craft to their customer, whether that's the end user or a retailer or a workroom. That's why I asked if marketing was a part of any training or certification for the installer. I know it is for retailers, but I never found that kind of instruction in any installation related class I ever took. That to me is a serious omission. Jim

No Jim, I was referring to a comment from someone else. I'm feeling a big difference from installers who are presold and those who sell themselves. Of course if you aren't working through someone else, you need to be able to market your craft. That is a very good word, "craft" - if I design and make someone a piece of jewelry, are they going to ask me if I'm certified? There is an automatic qualification to having a skill and a talent and the ability to perform a craft. In my opinion.

And yes, installers should learn business skills. It would really help them deal with retailers and customers. Some are way too rough around the edges on that, and it's good they work through a store and have a buffer.

Tia

[Jon Scanlan]

I can really only talk about New Zealand but I do know what has happened here and I would presume other countries are very similar. When I started laying flooring 43 years ago not many actually went through an apprenticeship. Later on the Master Flooring Federation was worried that there were not many qualified layers so they arranged with the Labour Dept to get the layers that had been flooring for at least 5 years to become qualified. It was something they were doing to help their members. Most layers rubbished this qualification with the approach of she will be right. One had to get references and pay a fee. This then went through the NZ Master Flooring Assoc for approval. Most layers where known by people on the committee so if any hacks applied they would be rejected. The NZM Assoc could see the way things were heading with people having to attend Site Safe courses, you now have to wear hard hats, all sorts of safety gear, the talk of having to be qualified, or be an apprentice to be able to work on sites, etc, etc The whole country was stating to become over regulated. Now days the NZ flooring Industrial organization is pushing for training and more are getting qualified each year as the employers of the layers can see the merits of being qualified as business sense to them to survive. If the layers were happy doing smaller jobs directly to the customer it was fine to just carry one the same old way but if they wanted to do any commercial work all these rules regulations start coming in. I reckon that the same thing is going to happen in other countries as what is happening here if it isn't already happening.

[davegarden]

It's amazing that some people in our trade can make twice what others even think about charging. Selling yourself is huge and you should be using whatever advantage you have to market yourself. One of the problems our trade has is the competitive nature of the independent contractor. Or the young sub who doesn't have a clue on how to run his business. Knowledge equals money no matter what you do for a living.

In my own utopian world I would like to work with these so called underskilled guys, and show them the proper way. Most of them were never trained right to begin with and just need a gentle nudge.

It's a shame that on one hand we want to charge a decent rate and on the other we do not consider ourselves worthy of that rate. I have an electrician living next door to me. He makes good money I guess. The amazing thing is that he has to go to seminars in order keep his liscensing up. Every type of floor that we install has changed in the past 10 years. New vinyls, laminates are different, and you no longer need to mud all your ceramic. The only way to learn new installation systems is by learning about them. That is why I like the training classes.

In my state flooring is not considered a trade. That to me is appalling. It takes alot of skill to do the things we do to make peoples homes what they are. In most cases the first thing people see when they enter a house is the floor. By raising the standards of those we work along side we can increase our bottom line.

[FlooringGirl]

davegarden said In my own utopian world I would like to work with these so called underskilled guys, and show them the proper way. Most of them were never trained right to begin with and just need a gentle nudge.

My husband partnered up several months ago with an installer who has been at it about 10 years. He told me that the guy has learned many things from him, as he was pretty much self-taught. Although this guy has always done pretty good work, there is always something to be learned from and old pro who was taught by other old pros. A couple years ago, I met the man who trained my husband all those years ago, and he's hard core! No wonder it gets done right ... I still believe talent plays a certain part, though.

In my state flooring is not considered a trade. That to me is appalling. It takes alot of skill to do the things we do to make peoples homes what they are. In most cases the first thing people see when they enter a house is the floor. By raising the standards of those we work along side we can increase our bottom line.

That is disgusting. It isn't considered a trade here either. It is an extremely skilled trade and should be considered as such. What I worry about the most is a short number years from now, when there aren't any qualified young people to step into the shoes of the good ones who retire ... my husband just doesn't have the patience to train anyone new, and most of the other old-timers don't either.

Tia

[rusty baker]

I would consider training someone, but to be honest, most of the young men around here are lazy and don't have any pride in what they do.

[FlooringGirl]

rusty baker said I would consider training someone, but to be honest, most of the young men around here are lazy and don't have any pride in what they do.

Exactly - a couple of our installers have young helpers who just go through the motions for a paycheck. I've only seen one who truly has a passion.

Tia

[Jon Scanlan]

rusty baker said I would consider training someone, but to be honest, most of the young men around here are lazy and don't have any pride in what they do.

And once you have spent all this time teaching them the right way, they think they know everything and off they go in opposition to you
Should remember that when I was learning someone taught me. Okay 43 years ago most of the buildings were in vinyl bar the managers office. Year 2010 now buildings all ceramic tiles, carpet, timber floors. Not much vinyl. Most of our vinyl work now days is domestic and having two people there is a waste of time and not economical. Customer then says one guy just stood around doing nothing. Retailer suggested that I get an apprentice and it was suggested that owner would be told that two people would be coming as one was learning. Owners response "He is not learning on my place"

[FlooringGirl]

Jon Scanlan said And once you have spent all this time teaching them the right way, they think they know everything and off they go in opposition to you Should remember that when I was learning someone taught me. Okay 43 years ago most of the buildings were in vinyl bar the managers office. Year 2010 now buildings all ceramic tiles, carpet, timber floors. Not much vinyl. Most of our vinyl work now days is domestic and having two people there is a waste of time and not economical. Customer then says one guy just stood around doing nothing. Retailer suggested that I get an apprentice and it was suggested that owner would be told that two people would be coming as one was learning. Owners response "He is not learning on my place"

I get a kick when the guys are asked how long they've been installing and tell the customer it's their first job, even with 20 or 30 years under their belt. They always get a really scared look!!

Tia

[Jon Scanlan]

FlooringGirl said I get a kick when the guys are asked how long they've been installing and tell the customer it's their first job, even with 20 or 30 years under their belt. They always get a really scared look!! Tia

When I am asked if I have done this before I tell them No. If the old flooring which is getting replaced and that job was a mess do you think they would let me in? I am telling them the truth I did not lay the floor they have now which is getting renewed.

[Bill Watson]

FlooringGirl said I get a kick when the guys are asked how long they've been installing and tell the customer it's their first job, even with 20 or 30 years under their belt. They always get a really scared look!! Tia

Ha!
I did that all the time. Usually, it was in response to my customer commenting that it "Looks like you've done this before". I also said "Don't worry though, I've got a Sunset (or some other DIY) magazine out in the truck, open to the page on how to install floors".

Don't really know why I did that, just trying to be funny I guess. Thank goodness it never really backfired on me.
Sorry for the hijack. Just made me laugh.
GET BACK ON TOPIC HERE!