Did You Get This Email about The EPA's new Lead Renovation, Repair and Painting Rule?

[TFP Admin]

stullis said Who was sponsoring it?

Aramsco eCommerce Specializing in products for the hazardous environment.

Sponsorship by that or any other company doesn't make it spam any more than The Floor Pro Community being sponsored by Google and other miscellaneous advertisers makes us - and your comments - spam. Free to participants doesn't mean it doesn't cost money to produce a webinar. It means a company(s) stepped forward with cash in hand in exchange for promotion of their products.

Let's get back on topic now.

Jim

[Chris Mha]

Went to a wood flooring seminar this morning at our local distributor. They briefly covered the upcoming April deadline to be certified for this. I think there were only one or two others besides myself that even had a clue that this needs to be done.
I'm reading through this pamphlet now and as soon as I get a chance to scan it into my computer I will post it. Here is another location for information. Lead Home | Lead in Paint, Dust, and Soil | US EPA

[Chris Mha]

Don't know if you will be able to read these but I will post the pamphlet that I got yesterday.
Here is a link to accredited training providers in many states. http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/trainingproviders.htm#mi

[davegarden]

Where was this law in 1979? I have had a cold for thirty years, could this be why?

[Daris Mulkin]

I went to the lead paint seminar today in Sterling Heights at Dave Gardens warehouse. Its quite a class. My take on it is if you do any work for the govt you better take the class cause there are a lot of rules that pertain to HUD projects. Not knowing the rules could get you into a world of hurt. But for the regular residential installer there is not much but some that may pertain to him.
The first half of the day and maybe an hour this afternoon was all classroom. The afternoon was hands on testing and procedures and the test of 45 questions of which I missed 4. I would have only missed 2 but my pencil circled the wrong answer. I tried my damnedest to make it go to the right answer but didn't have the strength.
The instructor also was up on asbestos and found out a few things about that. Depending on your state laws in the residential setting we may not have to worry about that either. It was actually set up for schools and manufacturing areas. In any case in Michigan the home owner can take his own up and throw it out with his household trash but a contractor can't.
I really think this lead issue is going to open up a whole new can of worms like the asbestos thing did especially after the lawyers get a good grip on it and go for the bucks that could be made off class action lawsuits or if you did something in a house that turned the lead loose and affected a kid 6 or under, or a pregnant woman.
So if any job that you do that you may possibly remove mouldings, disturbs the paint in houses, or painted floors, or stained floors built before 1978 then you may have a concern.
I know there was another posting on this but couldn't fine it. I know Roland also has attended one of these classes and was going to make comments after someone else had attended a class.

Daris

[davegarden]

The afternoon was hands on testing and procedures and the test of 45 questions of which I missed 4. I would have only missed 2 but my pencil circled the wrong answer.

Funny Daris. I remember 100 questions and getting every one correct. Something must be wrong with that pencil you got.

I still have a ton of questions. One thing is for sure, and that is there is no way most target homes can afford lead abatement.

[Daris Mulkin]

i sure thought more would be interested in the lead training classes. Nobody but Dave and I I guess. Anyway here is a link to some of Michigan lead paint stuff.

MDCH - Lead Poisoning

Daris

[Tandy Reeves]

Daris it should be no supprise, because of four rules 99% of installers live by.

#1 It cost money.
#2 They have to go to class.
#3 Even though work is real slow, they would miss too much work.
#4 EPA will never check them or issue a fine

[davegarden]

I heard today that the EPA wasn't the ones issuing the fines. The local Municipalities were going to be doing that. If that is true it could be a nice money generator for small cities in major markets.

[rusty baker]

It'll just be another job dumped on some poor schmuck who is already overworked and doing two people's jobs.

[Daris Mulkin]

Tandy~ i don't know if you checked any of the stuff on this out but it isn't going to only involve the installers. There is paper work that has to be filled out by the consumer as well and the only ones to get it to them is the retailor. The ones that its really going to affect is the builder/remodeler so I'm sure the cost of that will rise.
I'm sure this is going to turn into a mess before its all straightened out.
Kind of like when I was young my grandfater told me "if the gov't wants it -you don't."

Daris

[Ken Peirson]

I completed the lead class on Wednesday and I wanted to share a couple of thoughts about it.
1. I was not impressed with the class or the presentation of the material. The EPA guide book was read to us and they asked the questions be kept to a minimum and/or not asked at all due to the amount of material to cover. With the questions that did get acknowledged and asked- it became apparent that the instructors not only didn't want to answer, they couldn't answer them because they had no answers. The only information they had was what was in the book.
2. The scare tactics used to impart urgency and importance to this is idiotic. True enough that lead is dangerous and should be handled properly. However, their list of trades and work that supposedly can cause contamination is a far stretch (without much supporting evidence) and comes off looking like what this is- a way to generate money off of contractors who should not be involved in this farce.
3. The described containment and clean-up procedures are pretty basic and easy- involving more time then anything. But for a substance that is so deadly- the testing and measurements of the existing amounts versus the amount supposedly released during work is non-existent.
-The test kit to to test for lead (a small vial containing a liquid that turns red in the presence of lead) is not 100% accurate. Interestingly, we were told this test is not valid in Maryland even though Roland just got certified for it.
-The next step up in testing is to cut a square of paint off the areas and send it for testing (this testing requires more training and certification) and the ultimate testing is a machine that contains a radioactive isotope that emits a small beams of radiation- this method gives an immediate reading if lead is present. That testing also requires more training and certification and the machines sells for about $15,000 if anyone is interested in going that route.
I still maintain that measurements should be taken off the air quality prior to work and after for the most accurate measurement of any lead dust being released during work and to what levels.

Also perplexing is the clean-up. Spreading plastic down over the horizontal work areas to catch any lead dust is OK but then you mist the plastic with water to tie it down and roll the plastic up and put it in a single plastic trash bag that is NOT labeled as hazardous materials. once you seal the bag opening with duct tape- you just throw it out in the trash. We all have seen how careful the garbage collectors are with trash bags and also at the dump. When I asked how the bags would not be ripped and the lead dust not contaminate anything- no one could answer me.

For cleaning up non-carpeted floor areas after work is done- it is recommended to mop the areas with water and have a separate bucket for rinse and fresh water. Aside from my issue with the video and the book telling everyone to mop their wood floors- the rinse water is put directly into the toilet for disposal. Apparently, the lead is not dangerous in the water supply- just like cadmium and mercury is OK in the water and our fish. But what about people with septic systems? According to the EPA's descriptions- you could just as easily corrupt the septic system or field and more like an open window could contaminate a house down the street from where your working.

Finally, enforcement. The instructors admitted that the EPA does NOT have enough people to enforce these regulations. There was some talk about township inspectors enforcing them but the instructors (supposedly) talked with several township inspectors and they said it is not their job and they are not interested.
The fallback enforcers are actually the scary part. All the instructors promote the fact that you can and should turn any contractors in to the health department for doing any work in a house known to contain lead. All the instructors actually commented on how well the the 10% whistle-blowing fee of $32,500 pays and that they are hoping to find people working without the certifications for the easy money.
So if you lose a job because you identified lead and you see someone else work there- turn them in for the money. You could make money just locating jobs with lead and bidding them high and watching to see who eventually does the work. A whole new market is created!

Too many grey areas and too many guidelines that are open for interpretation at various levels.

All in all- I was not overly impressed with the class and could have spent the money in much better ways.

Ken