Training - same in your industry?

[the Rug Chick]

Hi all,

I accidentally posted this in the Carpet Q&A of the D-I-Y section (ooops) - I guess I got lost.

Maybe John can find it and replace this post, because I'm sure it was much more eloquent...

I was inquiring about your training in these fields - and whether you struggle as we do in ours with training that is not empowering students with practical skills to take to the marketplace.

Here's the article we've been discussing, which I joined Jim Pemberton in writing, calling for some changes in our industry regarding training.

I know IICRC has been approached to develop an installation standard, and to develop courses around that effort.

My question is - do you now have strong examples of quality training that could be modeled? This is an area the IICRC is weak in, at least in some areas in our field, and it makes sense to me that new efforts in developing new programs should look to successes in other areas... versus modeling the past failures and putting a new wrapper on it to pretend it's fresh.

I'm looking for successful training models for hands-on skills, and I'd love to know any course you feel fit that model.

Thank you!
Lisa

[rusty baker]

Many installers think that IICRC developing installation standards would be an insult to installers, just like installers developing a cleaning standard would be an insult to cleaners. But it is my understanding that they are not developing standards but working with other organizations.

[the Rug Chick]

Thank you... any examples of strong training in your industry? Any instructors you like?

Lisa

[rusty baker]

I wish there was training in my area, but there isn't any available.

[BrianM]

the Rug Chick said Thank you... any examples of strong training in your industry? Any instructors you like? Lisa

*
Local 1247 in Southern California has a 4 year apprenticeship that produces some of the best installers in the world. (and some of the worst as well, nothing is foolproof)

The kids attend class for a full 40 hour week and get paid through our hourly contributions to their school. They have to do this every 3 months (I think, could be 6 months) and verify enough hours working in the trade, and also show the teacher/administrator that they've accumulated a list of specific tools required for each stage of the program.

When that is all verified they are given a raise to the next stage.

It's basically the way all trade union apprenticeships have worked for many generations.

[the Rug Chick]

Thank you Brian. It's interesting... in an interview Jim P. and I did on IAQ Radio, we talked about how we have high school basics-only level training (IICRC), some college heavy-facts training (RIA) - but neither gives you SKILLS... it gives you content to remember.

What we really need is a TRADE SCHOOL to teach through seeing and doing, not sitting and being power pointed to death. Being a great test taker does not mean you are also a great cleaner. Reading it in a book may mean you KNOW it... but not that you can DO it.

I like the apprenticeship model... thank you for that...

Lisa

[BrianM]

the Rug Chick said Thank you Brian. It's interesting... in an interview Jim P. and I did on IAQ Radio, we talked about how we have high school basics-only level training (IICRC), some college heavy-facts training (RIA) - but neither gives you SKILLS... it gives you content to remember. What we really need is a TRADE SCHOOL to teach through seeing and doing, not sitting and being power pointed to death. Being a great test taker does not mean you are also a great cleaner. Reading it in a book may mean you KNOW it... but not that you can DO it. I like the apprenticeship model... thank you for that... Lisa

Hi Lisa. The "hands-on" part, meaning actual work experience of the 3-4 year program is where a person learns how to recognize what they're handling whether it's a bonding agent/primer, patch, adhesive, floor product or trim.
They're on their knees trying to make a living at least 2000 hours a year for that trial period. Every week when payday comes it means they've met MY standards as their supervisor and the shop owner's standards. So there's a constant challenge to produce a quality product at a very rapid pace. To do that you really need an intuitive grasp of the material that ONLY comes from repetition.......and at the same time variety of that repetition. By that I mean if your prepping a floor you have to learn to use different types of patch. Glue down or stretch carpet requires you to handle so many backings, patterns and style. Vinyl and hard surface is an endless stream of change and confusion. READ THE INSTRUCTIONS. Yeah, it's complicated.

It's trial by fire. Do it right or get fired. I had to fire an apprentice last week. He was too slow and made too many really basic errors. We can't sell that to our customers and I doubt any other shops can either. He might wind up working for himself and eventually improving his quality and quantity.

Quality and quantity are pretty much what the commercial end of the trade is all about.

It's good to hear your voice in this discussion. We need all the various corners of the market to work together.

[stullis]

Training for what? Carpet, vinyl, floor prep, ceramic, hardwood, ....?

Carpet is the weakest but there are programs out there.

There was a school in Austin MN that had a program that taught the basics.

[hookknife]

Armstrong offers some good hands on courses, and there are others,most schools/training that is offered by manufacturers is geared toward a specific product but there are some fine courses available. I think Ray Thompson has some sort of training school????

[stullis]

Model the CTEF courses for ceramic installation if you want a quality minded program.

[Peter Kodner]

My experience is parallel to Brian's. Our mechanics were members of local 1185 of the Carpenters Union in Chicago. We had Washburn school there and I would put them up against any other program in the country for flooring apprenticeships! A little pride coming out- I was the representative for the PFCIA on the training program committee for several years. Our hour requirements for advancement were similar and we also had a designation of "helper" where we could sponsor a person at a reduced rate until a new school session started. Washburn did teach basic math skills and some paperwork handling in additio9n to the intensive hands on work. I have found, in talking with others around the country, most apprentice programs provide the basics needed to have a good professional career int he trade, but also as Brian said, it depends of the individual. Horse to water and all that rot. The only drawback I see for these programs is there are only available in the strong Union areas. The majority of the country is not union.

I have attended a CFI level I class as a guest and was impressed with the scope of knowledge that was covered in a two day class. Their test, both hands on and written were good indicators the attendees had absorbed the curriculum. This is a very viable option for carpet installation. I have not attended any of their other flooring classes and cannot comment on them.

Scott mentioned CTEF. I have not had the chance to go there (hope to for their inspection school) but have heard excellent comments about their offerings.

There are many manufacturer's programs. Many are excellent. Forbo, Nora, Armstrong, Shaw, Mohawk and Ardex come to mind. I have over the years attended classes by all of them, and although I have never installed for a living, I gained a much deeper understanding of what was required for their installations. The downside is many of these require a fee, albeit usually small and time off the job (but careful analysis would show if one single trick was learned that saved you 15 minutes on a job, 48 jobs where this trick was used would pay for the 2 days lost wages. My experience has been that several AHA moments were gained at every class. Do the math...). For many there will also be travel costs to attend.

Although not hands on, every floor covering association has educational meetings. Many topics would advantageous for installers to attend. Product information, construction information and even some basic business skills cannot fail to improve an installers abilities. I'm sure I'll catch some flack for this comment!

I'm sure I have missed other opportunities for learning and many of my comments and opinions will be disputed. Let the games begin