Tricks Of The Vinyl Trade

[Lo Down]

Originally Posted by Jim McClain I believe the labels usually say, "Clear Thinspread". It's not "clear spread", it's thinspread that is clear in color. I don't have a bucket of the stuff any more, but I think that's it. Jim EDIT Here's a picture of Henry's 430: Bostik's pictures are too small, but the description for one... D-650™ Clear VCT Adhesive (formerly LE5000) D-650™ is a latex, clear, thin spread adhesive... Roberts 2057 also writes "A solvent-free premium quality, water-based clear thin-spread that provides..." I love research.

Jim, looking at that photo........... and the trowel along side of it............ do you think that the adhesive will be dry to touch by late August?

[Jim McClain]

Maybe early September.

[Jeff Needham]

Originally Posted by rgfloor There was a time when Circle A would not warranty clear thin spread over cutback residue, but they did warranty the black thin spread (go figger). So on a redo project we often got stuck with the black goo.

We've been using the D650 adhesive over old cut back residued for years with no bond issues. Started doing so on the recommendation of our supplier. Never had a problem. Do need to remove excess old adhesive. Thousands of boxes in our local hospital, alone. No issues.

[Daris Mulkin]

Jeff I'm surprised you got away with removing excessadhesive in the old cutback in a hospital. I was always told it had asbestos in it. Was it tested?
Jim September of what year? I know you just posted a advertisg picture.

Daris

[Peter Kodner]

Daris is dead on. Over the years we had many old tile jobs tested and frequently the tile to be less than 1% but the adhesive were tested at 24-28% asbestos content.

[Jeff Needham]

Originally Posted by Daris Mulkin Jeff I'm surprised you got away with removing excessadhesive in the old cutback in a hospital. I was always told it had asbestos in it. Was it tested? Jim September of what year? I know you just posted a advertisg picture. Daris

Once upon a time(8-10 yrs ago) no one seemed to be worrying about the old glue. Or, perhaps the abaters were taking up glue with old v.a.t., and I wasn't aware. Recently, however, we were removing glued carpet from the hallways in one wing. Having carpeted this wing twice before this, we ALL were sure tile was long gone,already. To the contrary, when we began pulling carpet this time, 12" tile started coming up with it. No asbestos there, but the head of engineering was almost panic stricken with the thought he'd have to shut down the wing to abate the old adhesive. Fortunately, we were able to chase the abaters around the wing and they only needed a couple adjacent rooms cleared at a time.

[Peter Kodner]

I think I may have posted this before, but early on when asphalt cutback began to replace emulsions, they found asbestos fiber kept the mixture in solution far longer than any other binder. My mechanics used to turn a pail over for a half hour while sweeping an area, flip it back to open it, and it would stay mixed the whole day. Not to scientific, but back in those days the margins for error were a lot bigger. Kind of hard to goof up 12 X 12 VAT with cutback, except when you spread too much on the floor! (I am speaking from experience here. I spread a room when I was a 16 year old kid and it was three days before it flashed off enough to lay the tile I think I also had as much on me as on the floor )

[barrycarlton]

When mixing the low gloss Armstrong seam coating I use a partially straightened paper clip chucked up in my drill. Like a cake mixer.

[rgfloor]

Originally Posted by barrycarlton Like a cake mixer.

It doesn't taste very good though.

[Forbo King]

Originally Posted by Jeff Needham if i recall my own training and years on my knees(though i didn't ever do much VCT myself), chalk first- a chalked line will show clearly through the vct adhesive, once it dries- or, as i may show my ignorance, is there still a time and place for cut back adhesive?

Clear spread is not really a good adhesive to use on any vct. It stays rubbery for life and the tiles will tend to move for life(in commercial applications with high traffic). I think he was speaking of emulsion(black) adhesive.
In black adhesive, all you need to do is spread the adhesive about 3 feet wide from pencil mark to pencil mark...in about 5 minutes, the adhesive will be dry enough to snap a line.
Or you can do it the commercial way most of us do on large jobs...
Make your marks...spread the whole area, but don't cover the small marks. Wait till the glue is dry.... wet the bottom of your shoes with water and simply walk across the glue...LOL It works, and the glue never comes off the ground and sticks to your shoes....
Another note about clear set VCT adhesive...
It can truly slow down a big job and cause potential problems from movement. If you use clear set, you have to place the tile...where as with black glue, you can slide it into place. Clear has a memory, and if the tile isn't put in perfectly, it can easily shift on it's own.
In a larger job, I can only install about 30-35 boxes of VCT over clear set, where as I can get 50-55 boxes over black in 7 hrs. So in commercial applications, clear set is a big NO NO....
Steve

[Demonseed]

I am never installing VCT with you, if you are walking over 130 with water on your shoes and setting tile in that wet, you have me confused. Do you own a Mineral spirits company?

Why would you have to slide tile? If the adhesive is tacked properly you just install it. Granted it is late, but i do not understand what you are explaining here. ( I do commercial VCT if you are setting tile in 130 in 5 minutes, I want to know the secret)

Originally Posted by Forbo King Clear spread is not really a good adhesive to use on any vct. It stays rubbery for life and the tiles will tend to move for life(in commercial applications with high traffic). I think he was speaking of emulsion(black) adhesive. In black adhesive, all you need to do is spread the adhesive about 3 feet wide from pencil mark to pencil mark...in about 5 minutes, the adhesive will be dry enough to snap a line. Or you can do it the commercial way most of us do on large jobs... Make your marks...spread the whole area, but don't cover the small marks. Wait till the glue is dry.... wet the bottom of your shoes with water and simply walk across the glue...LOL It works, and the glue never comes off the ground and sticks to your shoes.... Another note about clear set VCT adhesive... It can truly slow down a big job and cause potential problems from movement. If you use clear set, you have to place the tile...where as with black glue, you can slide it into place. Clear has a memory, and if the tile isn't put in perfectly, it can easily shift on it's own. In a larger job, I can only install about 30-35 boxes of VCT over clear set, where as I can get 50-55 boxes over black in 7 hrs. So in commercial applications, clear set is a big NO NO.... Steve

[Forbo King]

Originally Posted by Demonseed I am never installing VCT with you, if you are walking over 130 with water on your shoes and setting tile in that wet, you have me confused. Do you own a Mineral spirits company? Why would you have to slide tile? If the adhesive is tacked properly you just install it. Granted it is late, but i do not understand what you are explaining here. ( I do commercial VCT if you are setting tile in 130 in 5 minutes, I want to know the secret)

LOL....it's a "trick of the trade"....it's done all the time. 130 will dry in about 5 minutes to the touch with a blower on it. By dampening the soles of your shoes, it prevents the adhesive from sticking to them and transferring. The water evaporates immediately and has NO effect on the adhesive. This is only done in certain situations, but not everywhere.
Sliding tile is the industry standard for commercial vct installs. The technique is about speed. And most guys can do it and never have run off or windows. After the initial line of tiles are set and you start a large pyramid, there is no better way to do it. It's the only way the footage is getting down.
I'm assuming you've never done a 100K sq ft job in 7 hrs with a crew. With this technique, as soon as you grab the tile, it's on the floor.
Steve

[hookknife]

lousy Tile Jockeys,lol

[Demonseed]

I actually do commercial flooring, even with blowers, we never start installing tile on 130 that fast, If the 130 is not tacked it will seep through. Are there certain situations were it does set faster than others, perhaps but 5 minutes would be very rare. It doesn't matter how good you are if your floor is not Flat you will have to make corrections in the field at some point, whether it is through compression, or an actual correction. 100k of tile in 7 hours, if it was all field like a vacant supermarket or factory, that is doable with enough people and if all the prep work is done.

I may have misunderstood you though. If I am glueing a large area and it takes me X number of minutes, and i finish glueing, by that time the adhesive may be ready. Or do you mean one guy is glueing and 5 minutes later another guy is installing?

We did a job this week that the Union refused to do (It was too hard). The areas were semi-circles with large radiators following along the semi-circle that also had a railing in front of it. Under the radiators were about 60 pipes coming up and down that had the covers (3 5/8") nailed to the concrete. Every circle was positioned next to another circle and they were all at different angles relative to the semi-circle. Yeah, i know, we scratched our heads for a while.

It was harder than it looked or sounds, you just need to make a template for the circle mark the tile and measure the distance for the template, torch and cut, but it was a PITA because of how deep the radiators were, and you basically had to go belly down to do this.

[Forbo King]

Originally Posted by Demonseed I actually do commercial flooring, even with blowers, we never start installing tile on 130 that fast, If the 130 is not tacked it will seep through. Are there certain situations were it does set faster than others, perhaps but 5 minutes would be very rare. It doesn't matter how good you are if your floor is not Flat you will have to make corrections in the field at some point, whether it is through compression, or an actual correction. 100k of tile in 7 hours, if it was all field like a vacant supermarket or factory, that is doable with enough people and if all the prep work is done. I may have misunderstood you though. If I am glueing a large area and it takes me X number of minutes, and i finish glueing, by that time the adhesive may be ready. Or do you mean one guy is glueing and 5 minutes later another guy is installing? We did a job this week that the Union refused to do (It was too hard). The areas were semi-circles with large radiators following along the semi-circle that also had a railing in front of it. Under the radiators were about 60 pipes coming up and down that had the covers (3 5/8") nailed to the concrete. Every circle was positioned next to another circle and they were all at different angles relative to the semi-circle. Yeah, i know, we scratched our heads for a while. It was harder than it looked or sounds, you just need to make a template for the circle mark the tile and measure the distance for the template, torch and cut, but it was a PITA because of how deep the radiators were, and you basically had to go belly down to do this.

The funny part is we have done 100K in open stores like 24 hr Super Pathmarks etc....with customers shopping.
Most of these jobs are done the wrong way upon the customers request/budget..strip-spot patch- go over the existing floor...LOL
Those are the union shops that run away...LOL Most Union shops are filled with hacks that shouldn't even be in the business. But they get the job done on a "commercially acceptable" level....which goes against my grain.
I'm from the old school of installing and like to do everything 110% correct. But in NYC, it is very very rare. It's a shame, but it's due to the almighty dollar as usual.
I simply run jobs with the right people for the job. If I need 90 box a day VCT guys, I know who to call...If I need perfectionists like myself, there are very very few to call. The commercial/union industry is definitely not what it use to be, but there are a few of us that actually give a crap about the outcome of the job, even when we are told not to.
I miss having my private, high end custom business. But it takes a lot compared to what I do now. We still do extremely complicated custom jobs, and I always know who to bring with me...
but they are not as frequent as I like.
Steve


PS- Ever do a Target store? Those I like. Targets spec....
Armstrong Tile. Ardex self leveling with 2 skims of feather. Floor polished smooth between coats. 130 adhesive applied with 1/16x 1x16 square notch followed by immediate paint roller to remove trowel marks. They come out looking like glass....literally. They want there floors done RIGHT