Carpet Binding Machine Issues

[Ken Peirson]

I have been trying to get around to this topic for some time for anyone who owns and binds their own carpet.
I have 2 machines that I use, a Bond double-puller and an old NC single puller- both work well except for some issues I have with the Bond.
The machine will be binding right along, everything looks great and then suddenly- it's missing a stitch here and there. I notice this tends to happen if I change binding or bobbins.
But, then just as sudden the thing goes right back to binding perfectly and it stays that way for the next couple of days worth of binding.
It's the damnest thing- sometimes when I try to adjust it- things get worse and I can't get it right but then by itself it goes back to running just fine.
Our good friend Dobby has always offered some insight along the way to me about binding and his thoughts about the machines being as touchy as a wife is so on the money it's ridiculous.
What do you think causes these these slight mis-stitches and the subsequent re-alignments?

[rgfloor]

Sounds like the hook is not quite grabbing the thread on the downstroke. That would be a timing issue, slightly out of time.

Dan Wachtel knows quite a lot about binders, maybe he'll chime in.

[mcurrin]

Both of those binders are very fragile in that department. It is usually the bobbin tension. If you are using the preformed bobbins then you will get little areas along thread that do not pull away from the bobbin, and fail to cath the thread. I have found that most of this type of issue is with the bobbin, either the rolls or the adjuster on the bobbin. Try using a bobbin that you put your own thread on. They are metal bobbins and you can spin the thread onto them with any houshold sewing machine. You can then experiment with different threads until you find one that works better. Both machines require a lot of maintenance and patience.

Mike

[Daris Mulkin]

I have 4 machines. The night before last, Tues, I had some binding to do, about 100 ft. Would you believe all 4 acted up and did the same thing. They all broke the mono. I wanted to drop kick them so bad I could taste it. I was in the supply house talking to another binder person who also is waiting for parts said it could be the mono. So I bought a spool of mono and walla, its working again. From what was said in the suppy house a whole lot of us were having trouble at the same time. We said" it must be a binder virus, don't open the attachment."

Daris

[Chris Flynn]

Sometimes (as Daris said) The Mono thread will bind up on the spool and change the top thread tension so the loop of the mono down in the shuttle hook is too small for the pick to grab it.. Adjust the tube that is at the top of your mono thread so it is EXCATLY at the center of the mono thread and your mono will not bind up...Also Make sure that you put a drop of oil in the shuttle hook on every 40-50 feet that you bind...That is very IMPORTANT!!!! Also CHANGE the NEEDLE OFTEN . Some times if the needle is slowed up from not being about to puncture the goods it will momentarily change the timing. Believe it or not there is a lot of "play" in the shuttle hood and it can move just enough so it will not pick up the loop.. Also a good Idea to check you hook on the shuttle and see if there is any burrs... One last problem might be that your shuttle hook carrier may be worn and there is too much play in it.
I am telling the truth when I say that I have probably owned over 40 binding machines in my life.( not counting upholstery and other types ). I have bought and sold them just because I like messing around with them...( I also have to fix friends and family's regular sewing machines) there are many interchangeable parts that will work in an instant for a N-C or Bond machine that can be taken from singer or white machines. But NO phaff or con-sew part will work . The Large table machine that N-C sells are actually Union Specials made in IL.. and the Bond Table model is a Singer... Both Companies do the necessary modifications so they will work for carpet. The portables are Korean and Japanese. The National is a Chinese machine ( or Taiwan made)
And still there are times that I will and have to send my machines to N-C for repair...HA! I can honestly say that N-C or Bond have the greatest machine mechanic's Going...

[Ken Peirson]

I thought I should have put this post in the tools section when I started it- thanks for moving it.
I will be checking on all of those points to try and figure out what is causing this during my binding.
I think that part of my issue is caused by the folder I am using. Based on some good advice from Dobby, I use only 1 1/4" binding tape now. However, I am using the clean edge folder and I notice more misses with it than I do with my regular folder. It appears that the fold for the clean edge makes it more likely to miss when any of the issues everyone brought up happen.
Any thoughts on this?
Chris, I hoped to pull you into this discussion and based on the number of machines you've worked on, I was wondering if there is any repairs you won't perform on your machines at this point?

[Peter Kodner]

Chris, did you bring back some memories for me. Union Special was one of my clients when I was a contractor. Good old Huntley, Il. Don't blink when you are driving through or you'll miss it! They did open an outlet mall at Interstate 90 and Huntley Road, but other than that and Union, there isn't much there.

FYI Huntley is about 60 mile West of Chicago. The original location for Union Special and the company is well over 100 years old. They been at sewing machines for quite a while. Their lobby is full of old pictures of past president. Some are quite amusing. I also think we replaced some of the original dirt floors

Plant is big enough they get around on trikes. Never knew the made the table units for N-C though.

[Chris Flynn]

Res man, there are some repairs that I just don't do, But will do someday when I know more, and Lately I have ever been having a gentleman from Danville IL. to time my machines. Just so I can go and pick his Brain.... He is almost 80 years old, and has worked on sewing machines all of his working life , I have learned a pantload from him about machines and how they work. I always allow extra time because he always teaches me something about machines when I am there...And one last note about him he still rides his Harley, but now he has attached a three wheel kit.. The guy amazes me....
Res man... what type of binding are you using .( where do you buy it from) ? That may also be a problem.... When you use the term "Clean Edge" are you talking about a " folded edge" If so I think you might of missed Dobby"s point... One other thing I should of told you is to check is your Belts on the Bond machine... they need to be tight. the bond machines sometimes will slip if the belts are not tight enough.....
I do agree with Dobby that on wovens and wiltons a 1 1/4 works the best.. I do use 1 1/4 binding on wiltons and wovens and also base.... but use 7/8 (13/16) on most average goods. probably should go all to 1 1/4 but just have too many gross of binding in the 7/8. I probably keep 250 different colors in stock in 7/8 alone.
I can honestly say that the binding business has be "Berry.... berry good to me" and I love running machines. My favorite binding machine to this day is still my old speedbinder table model, which is currently the one that Bond has been selling. I can't remember the model number that they use, but is is actually an old Singer 107. The basic machine model has been around for almost 60 years. With the exception of the Union Special machines.. most of the newer models are no where near the "machine" that some of the older ones are...
Peter , have you been to Huntley Lately? there is no place that is 60 miles from Chicago that has not been built up and is too crowed... I have talked to some of the guys at Union Special and you will not find a finer bunch... I think that Bond and National are now buying their bobbinless table models from Union now, as all are the Union Chain stitch machine. The chain stitch is similar that is on a dog food bag or a seed corn bag.. ( where union special got a big boost from many years ago) Also the 81200 serger is a union special machine that has been converted for serging carpet...
Sorry about running on .... Just one subject that I like...
Thanks
Chris

[Daniel Wachtel]

I'm glad Chris got in there before me because my binder repair skills are from trial, error and then I called Chris.

[Peter Kodner]

Chris, I've lived up here for about 9 years and haven't stayed in touch with most of my old clients. I'm pretty sure the fellow I used to work with there is retired by now. You're right about the building. Did a lot of work for Ameritech and Seimans in what used to be a totally empty area. Sears is out there now too. The whole I-90 and I-88 corridors are almost unrecognizable to me these days.

Bell Labs (Lucent now) , another long time client, used to be about the only off I-88. Watched that facility grow from one building to a whole campus. Never forget when I was a youngster, my brother and I used to do take ups on Friday night for Saturday installations by the real mechanics. Took up about 250 yards in an auditorium. Was an old Bigelow Grograin with a slab rubber attached back. If the noses had worn out they never would have replaced it. You guys think Powerbond is hard to take up? Try some of the original rubber back goods before they cheapened into DIY grade. 2-3" wide strips at a time. My hands, back and knees still hurt remembering that job and it had to have been over 30 years ago. Course I was making about $125 a week as a sales/project manager and it seemed like real easy money at the time.

Just notice I really hijacked this thread! My Bad!

[Ken Peirson]

Chris,
I'm using 1 1/4" cotton tape for all my work. I had some unncessary repairs from using 7/8" tape a number of times (some I bound and some others bound for me) and while I know many people use 7/8" without issue- the slight price difference in binding and folders doesn't outweigh the benefits I get form the 1 1/4".
The main binding I currently do is the jobsite we have has 900 homes and all get stair runners. The large majority of my runners are straight runs with the sides bound only. I had issues with homeowners and other trades ruining the runners in various ways and the 7/8" binding was much harder to repair and/or replace with the builder grade carpet they are using.
Dobby's suggestion to use the 1 1/4" gave me a deeper bite into the carpet and also made repairs and hand binding (when necessary) much easier.
I am using a folded edge folder which looks nice but I do think that the folded edge reduces the binding width on the top (hence the folded edge) which is creating some of the issues with some of the skips I experience.
I use Bond for all my binidng supplies and repairs these days as I did NOT like my experiences with NC for a number of reasons and went to Bond and they are absolutely FANTASTIC to work with. Scott & Gene in the repair department are always helpful and they have let me bring my machine in and worked on it with me right there a number of times, which has helped me start to understand the machine better.
I am curious as to how often you change your needles.
Also, how tight do the belts need to be and how are you checking them?

Peter, highjack the thread however you like- I just like the participation in the thread from everyone.

[Chris Flynn]

Res Man.... cotton tape is good. but I will say the your choice of color is limited. and I change my needle at least once a day or every 300- 400 feet.... But on days that we are just binding will will do 500 ft + so they get changed twice a day. or more ( we are getting ready to start a 13,000 foot base job that will use up a lot of needles...).. I have taken them out and filed them when on the jobsite and was out of needles... I know it sounds strange but having a dull needle is one of the most common problems that people have with any machine... an old time sewing machine repair man(different one that My Danville guy) told me years ago that the cheapest repair I will ever have on a machine is to change the needle myself...
In my humble opinion if you are using a folded edge tape folder you are wasting the use of the 1 1/4 binding.... the whole point of 1 1/4 binding is to get up in the meat of the carpet and put your stitch...I would guess if you measure a 13/16 tape and a folded 1/14 tape the difference of the placement of the stitch is microscopic.
I will suggest that you set your machine's zig-Zag stitch so the the left downstroke is just outside of the edge of the binding and the right will fall where it may.... The will get you up into the carpet a little farther and that is why I can use 13/16 tape and not have any problems....
And you are correct Scott and Gene are great. I think that Gene used to work for Speedbinder so he has been around machines a good long time.... And I will say the Brian there at bond is one of the nicest guys I have ever met... I hope he does well.( Wait I will go put on my bond shirt and hat from Vegas....HA!!)
The belts on a bond machine ...I have mine so tight that you can not push any slack in them with your finger....
As far as the 7/8 binding I do understand , but I will say that most of the people that bind just do not bevel their carpet before binding, We bevel EVERYTHING.... reason #1--------- It is easier and faster to run through a machine and reason # 2 and the most important reason is IT LOOKS BETTER!!!!! Sorry for shouting. If you are going to bind and not bevel, then go ahead and seam your seams together and not use any sealer... that is the way that i look at it anyway.... and if you don't want to buy a beveler the get yourself a set of sheep shears and use them at least... You would be amazed at how much easier and faster you will bind if it is beveled.... In my humble opinion you can make up the beveling time in the faster binding....
sorry rambling again
Thanks
Chris

[Ken Peirson]

Chris,
You have given me a few things to look at and check. THe belts for 1 and I have been thinking about switching to a regular folder for the runners and your point makes it even harder to defend keeping the folded edge folder as I am not getting the full width of the tape, as I thought.
I completely agree with you about the needles being sharp. Ironically, I have been changing the needles about every 5-6 runner which works out to your numbers (both sides of a 27ft runner.)
I will also look very closely at the placement of the needle next to my folder to see if that helps.
The beveling of the carpet is always something I have heard mentioned but I was always unclear about.
1. DOes every carpet always need to be beveled? Are there any that shouldn't or can't?
2. What exactly does beveling the edge accomplish?
3. Could you post a picture of a before and after beveled edge so I can get an idea of exactly what it should look like and what it will do?
On a different note, do you latex your edges of material to be bound in all cases or just some instances?

Thanks,
Ken

[Chris Flynn]

hey Ken.
#1. we bevel everything except 20oz and Base( we use 1/14 on base so it gets up into the carpet a little more..) I Even bevel when using wide bindings and upholstery.
#2 beveling does 2 things at once, first it reduces the thickness of the material going through the folder. second it gets the fiber out of the way so you can have the folder right against the edge of the carpet.
#3 I will see if I have any pictures or I will take some later this week
and as far as latexing I always latex wovens, axes and sisal's before binding...
hope that helps

Chris

[Demonseed]

I dealt with a binding machine for a year or so, this is exactly why I do not have one. A place wanted me to get a portable binding machine, I took one look at them and said, It will never happen.