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Manufacture Recommended Trowel Notch Size



"Manufacture Recommended Trowel Notch Size," in the Vinyl Flooring Q&A forum, begins: "To disregard the product based on your assumption that the trowel notch is too large is way off the mark. ..."

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Old January 5, 2012, 07:45 AM   #16
stullis
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To disregard the product based on your assumption that the trowel notch is too large is way off the mark.

You haven't seen or worked with the product or the adhesive. Proper installation following specs will rarely cause issues.

In this case you set the plank into the glue at the right time and roll it and you won't have issues. Not only that you maintain the customers warranty.

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Old January 5, 2012, 07:57 AM   #17
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Not disregarding the product at all. I just see red flags base on my experience with Lvt. Teri is looking for information and I provided what I could.






Rob

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Old January 5, 2012, 08:03 AM   #18
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Only reason you would have a problem with notch size telegraphing through is if you let the glue set up too long and don't use the proper roller. Based on my experience.

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Old January 5, 2012, 08:38 AM   #19
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Glue spread recommendations usually come from the glue manufacturers working in conjunction with the material manufacturer.

Many factors influence these including the ones you guys have mentioned but also type of glue, type of expected traffic and use, how long the adhesive will last, solid content etc.

I think many are carrying over issues from the thin sheet good vinyls and are now trying to apply the same rule to other products, incorrectly I might add.

Oh and using less glue because you will be sitting there all night waiting for it to tack up.
I know it is done but it is wrong no matter how we try to justify it. And yes I have done it too.

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Old January 5, 2012, 11:59 AM   #20
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Must be summit wrong with your adhesive over there, all our manufacturers suggest using, 1mm , 1.5mm , 2mm V knotched trowel. Whats all this square knotched trowel never heard of that before the only people that use those here are the ceramic guys.

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Old January 5, 2012, 12:38 PM   #21
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Die Technische Kommission Bauklebstoffe
http://www.klebstoffe.com/07_publika...ngl-Layout.pdf
Zahnspachtel
http://www.onsitecatalog.com/catalogs/497/3226/#/4
for linoleum and carpet we use b1
pvc and rubber a2
pvc and vinyl with a smooth back a1
pvc on non-absorbent substrates a4

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Old January 5, 2012, 05:23 PM   #22
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Jeff Auld said View Post
Great topic, now my question say I am doing 4000sf of vct on concrete when and how often do I change trowel blades? It seems that they wear out hella fast, yes I do worry especially when using S-515 ( CRAP GLUE NO GRAB). I don't want a fail but went thru 6 blades both sides in 4 pails of glue. Did trowel get crappier? I remember that they lasted longer before. How on a big job can we have a constant spread rate and know we are doing by the book. Every job is different from slab absorbation, heat, humidity. All are different frrom the perfect square climate controlled rooms these lab rats in white coats test tthings in. Maybe cali style with paint rollers is the best way to use any glue, especially if they start shipping glue in boxes. Thanks for the sounding board, Jeff.
Good question and there is an answer.

Circle A did a study some years ago and the average installer when spreading wears down a trowel to the point of replacement every 2 gallons on concrete.

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Old January 5, 2012, 07:22 PM   #23
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Barry Carlton said View Post
Good question and there is an answer.

Circle A did a study some years ago and the average installer when spreading wears down a trowel to the point of replacement every 2 gallons on concrete.
Sounds about right, our testing over Versahield with a 32 x 16 x 32 trowel got about 300 ft per gal before the trowel was warn out. About 180 sq ft per gal spread rate.

That's a lot of trowels on a big job.

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Old January 6, 2012, 12:45 AM   #24
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D, hope you don't mind.
Hmmm, guess you did.

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Old January 7, 2012, 05:28 AM   #25
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kneeling board is key.


i take a 1/2 piece of luan and put collins and aikman peel and stick carpet on 1 side or both.and yes trowell blades have become weaker as of a couple of years ago.they wear down like nothing. thank you to forbo for including slip notch with glue.
Forbo King said View Post
In my experience, always follow the manufacturers spec....like RG said.
If you have 2 materials, one smooth back and one textured, I would suggest letting the adhesive flash off slightly longer on the smooth back.
Another option which I have done many times is to work away from the material and not on top of it.
You may also want to use a kneeler board if you need to work on top of it. Use a 3ft x 3 ft piece of masonite etc...
The manufacturers are not always right in their suggested trowel size and usually change it after a few hundred complaints.....LOL
Look at Armstrong....almost every material now uses the WHA blades- 1/32 x 1/16 x 5/64 notches. This was due to tons and tons of complaints with their sheet vinyl and tiles telegraphing the trowel marks. They even suggest on VCT to use a 1/16 x 1/16 square notch and immediately roll down the trowel marks with a paint roller......done that many times...

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Old January 7, 2012, 02:04 PM   #26
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Forbo King said View Post
They even suggest on VCT to use a 1/16 x 1/16 square notch and immediately roll down the trowel marks with a paint roller......done that many times...
This remark has caught my attention after reading through the post again, how long have you guys been doing this.
The reason I ask is because we over here have been doing that for years be it for sheet or tiles/planks. PS adhesive needs this, if the adhesive is spread out with a say 1.5mm knotched trowel as recomended here and left to dry transparent as recomended here then the ridges in the adhesive become to solid allowing the VCT to move ie shrink or expand as the bond strenght is only 30 - 40%. And not to mention the eventual grin through.
By rolling PS adhesive you not only get a 100% bond strength you also eliminate grin through and reduce the overall drying time of said adhesive so basically by the time 2 of you have spread and rolled 5m2 its ready to be installed.

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Old January 7, 2012, 04:01 PM   #27
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Forbo King said View Post
Look at Armstrong....almost every material now uses the WHA blades- 1/32 x 1/16 x 5/64 notches. This was due to tons and tons of complaints with their sheet vinyl and tiles telegraphing the trowel marks. They even suggest on VCT to use a 1/16 x 1/16 square notch and immediately roll down the trowel marks with a paint roller......done that many times...


Steve,

Do you know if circle A has this in writing? 1/16 square notch trowel on excelon tile? If I saw that I would not install it.




Rob

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Old January 7, 2012, 04:06 PM   #28
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Robert Akin said View Post
Steve,

Do you know if circle A has this in writing? 1/16 square notch trowel on excelon tile? If I saw that I would not install it.




Rob
Yep, a bit extreme....

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Old January 7, 2012, 04:10 PM   #29
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Did you both miss the part of rolling it immediately?....no trowel marks to telegraph.

Not sure if it is in print in US materials but it has been a long standing practice in Canada and Europe.

I have begun dong this for most PSA's and smaller VCT jobs.

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Old January 7, 2012, 04:17 PM   #30
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Barry Carlton said View Post
Did you both miss the part of rolling it immediately?....no trowel marks to telegraph.

Not sure if it is in print in US materials but it has been a long standing practice in Canada and Europe.

I have begun dong this for most PSA's and smaller VCT jobs.
....I think Rob did. That's stilla a lot. adhesive. When did nthey change forom 1/32....

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