"Konecto Casa edges coming apart," in the Vinyl Flooring Q&A forum, begins: "These three pictures are much lower quality, taken as still pictures on a camcorder. They show the box in which ..."
These three pictures are much lower quality, taken as still pictures on a camcorder. They show the box in which the calcium chloride tests came, the petri dishes used in the calcium chloride tests, and one of the domes or covers which are used in the calcium chloride test and which are still stuck to the concrete floor. Not sure anyone is really interested in these.
I may take some other pictures, for example of the six planks which are holding together in my garage at temps in the 30s, 20s, or teens, or of the earliest tests I tried with planks stapled to a plywood backing - if anyone is actually interested.
What I would be interested in seeing is the actual floor that has failed.
NOT pics of tests or equipment used to test, but the material on the floor with the failure displayed!
Two of the pictures I just posted ARE of the actual material on the floor. And I posted some previously in this thread, several weeks ago. Are you saying that the two pictures I just posted of the flooring all lifted up do not look like failure?
Location: Today....Under the Wainbow , Tomorrow...Who Knows?
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Re: Konecto Casa edges coming apart
Thanks, do you have any more of the installed floor failing. These are obviously a failure but without an inspection we do not know why they failed. Surprising to me that the distributor did not request an inspection.
I did this job in November. It has been three months and I have tried to leave it as undisturbed as I reasonably can for the record. The basement looks like a bloody mess. There is old furniture that was moved around in order to lay the floor, and that furniture hasn't been set up properly again. It is still sitting in the middle of this mess. Most of the old stuff we planned/plan to get rid of. The basement looks awful.
So, I am just posting observations which I find interesting. It may be that only a few other readers find them interesting, and it may be that the observations are meaningless, or even mistaken, but, here is another such.
I have been watching what I will call the bent-tab-Konecto seam in my foyer for 4 days, since removing weights last Thursday afternoon. It *appears* to be in the early stages of popping up again, BUT I will wait a few more days to see. I could be wrong. When one steps on lifted planks on the floor in the basement they appear to stay down, sometimes it seems for more than a week. And yet I have put masking tape on a few to ID and watch them, and some times it takes roughly a week before they pop up again.
I also noticed today, for the first time, something I found interesting about the Allure (yes, the Allure, not the Konecto) seam. I have taken pictures today, at a camera setting of 640, but I will wait a few days to post them - or not if no one is interested.
I will just say today that when I first looked at the Allure this morning I thought it too had lifted after all these days. One can see a black "gap" at the seam that wasn't there before. When one looks closely and feels the seam, one finds that there is indeed a "gap" of maybe as much as a thirty-second of an inch (I didn't try to accurately measure it). But there is no lifting off the glue of the lower tab as far as I can tell. In other words, this seam appears to have "separated" horizontally, without pulling apart the glue bond and without "lifting." What factor, what force is causing this? The thermostat upstairs has been down to 74 degrees for several weeks now, but it has not been changed over the period of time that this seam was made. If it is increased temp. that causes shrinkage then I don't get it. What caused this seeming horizontal shrinkage?
I will just say today that when I first looked at the Allure this morning I thought it too had lifted after all these days. One can see a black "gap" at the seam that wasn't there before. When one looks closely and feels the seam, one finds that there is indeed a "gap" of maybe as much as a thirty-second of an inch (I didn't try to accurately measure it). But there is no lifting off the glue of the lower tab as far as I can tell. In other words, this seam appears to have "separated" horizontally, without pulling apart the glue bond and without "lifting." What factor, what force is causing this? The thermostat upstairs has been down to 74 degrees for several weeks now, but it has not been changed over the period of time that this seam was made. If it is increased temp. that causes shrinkage then I don't get it. What caused this seeming horizontal shrinkage?
If the Allure material had been acclimated properly, then I'm betting others will be stumped also.
You have created quite an educational topic here. Not just for yourself, but for everyone reading it.
I noticed at a retailer here in town that one side of all the Konecto samples have a curl to them............. all on the non-glued overlapping edge.
These were all loose samples, not glued onto a display board.
The samples are years old, not new ones.
....... so I'm not sure what that says other than the vinyls decorative surface on top shrinks more than the core side.
Maybe they should have made a sandwich with the same vinyl on the bottom of the plank to balance out the tension.
.......or even better yet, maybe putting a second vinyl layer midway in the center of the material. That is the "sandwich" part is in the top layer (brown), then adding a backer layer with the adhesive tongue.
I'm no rocket scientist nor an engineer, but if vinyl is going to shrink and curl, you must find a method to counteract that curl........... aaah, that balancing act.
.......or even better yet, maybe putting a second vinyl layer midway in the center of the material. That is the "sandwich" part is in the top layer (brown), then adding a backer layer with the adhesive tongue.
...good idea Lo, kindda like the Amtico construction. A solid plastic middle core...
...good idea Lo, kindda like the Amtico construction. A solid plastic middle core...
Ya, it sure is. I'd probably cost Konecto too much if I was working for them in their R&D department.
So how come Amtico ain't makin' one of these type of floors?
If the Allure material had been acclimated properly, then I'm betting others will be stumped also.
You have created quite an educational topic here. Not just for yourself, but for everyone reading it.
The 2 Allure planks involved in the test came from a single box of Allure I bought *weeks* ago to use as a control. That box has been sitting on a cocktail table in my family room all that time. Two planks from that box were used in the foyer, which is adjacent to the family room (through an open doorway). Distance between planks and foyer floor on the one hand, and box of planks on the other, is about 10 to 15 feet.
The Konecto planks in the foyer came from a box which has been sitting on the floor in my dining room for about 3 months, ever since delivery. They are from one of four boxes that were never actually taken down to the basement. I have an open dining room - living room - foyer area. The Konecto box in the dining room is sitting maybe 25 feet from the foyer with no walls in between, i.e., it is one continuous open space.
I didn't think I needed to acclimate them to closer locations in the same upstairs space, before gluing them together, but I cannot be sure it would not have made a difference. I doubt that temps. could differ from one place to another by more than 1 degree?? With the ordinary cycling of a furnace off and on the temperatures in a house I think normally go up and down by a few degrees in any case.
It brings up a question, I suppose. In a larger open space does one need to acclimate these planks for 48 hours within, let's say, 10 feet of where one is going to lay them?
I noticed at a retailer here in town that one side of all the Konecto samples have a curl to them............. all on the non-glued overlapping edge.
These were all loose samples, not glued onto a display board.
The samples are years old, not new ones.
....... so I'm not sure what that says other than the vinyls decorative surface on top shrinks more than the core side.
Maybe they should have made a sandwich with the same vinyl on the bottom of the plank to balance out the tension.
.......or even better yet, maybe putting a second vinyl layer midway in the center of the material. That is the "sandwich" part is in the top layer (brown), then adding a backer layer with the adhesive tongue.
I'm no rocket scientist nor an engineer, but if vinyl is going to shrink and curl, you must find a method to counteract that curl........... aaah, that balancing act.
This brings up yet another topic I have been wondering about. These planks are indeed *layered*.
I have thought about the priniciple of how a mercury switch used to work in old thermostats. Most people probably know that the switch is attached to a metal strip/coil made of two different metals with different thermal coefficients of expansion. A change of temp. causes more or less coiling of the strip because of differential expansion/contraction of the bimetal strip.
The wear layer of the planks (very thin, 4 mil, decorative top layer) of the Casa is made (I think) of urethane (I am not sure), a different plastic than vinyl. But the coefficient of thermal expansion for urethane is (I believe) not very different than for polyvinylchloride. I am not knowledgable in these matters and I could be wrong.
I reported earlier in this thread that the Allure seems to have a layer different than the Casa, an extra "membrane" on the very bottom of the lower layer of vinyl. It appears to be made of a plastic different in composition than the vinyl layers. I wondered if this is there to create what you seem to be suggesting. I mean, is it there to prevent curving or coiling, i.e., to be a counter-force?
Because such analogies to known materials might be useful to think about, I have also been thinking about how an ordinary rubber band works. When new it is elastic. It has a "memory" for a certain size and shape. With age it loses elasticity. But even when new, if bent or stretched long enough it might develop a new memory for a different size or shape.
It seems very likely to me that the problem I am seeing on my actual floor is the result of at least two interacting properties of the planks (maybe more than two). One would be the curling/coiling/lifting tendency of the edges of the planks. And the other factor would be the ability/inability of the glue bonds to prevent that, to maintain a bond, and to keep the planks stuck together.
Glue failure and separation is one thing. If the glue bond is weak or pulls apart (let's say from horizontal shrinkage of the planks) that does not itself seem to me to imply curling up of lose edges. It seems that, depending on the material properties involved, the edges might still lie flat.
It seems much more likely to me from what I have seen that the curling up of the edges is what breaks the glue bond, although I find that counter-intuitive. I would not have thought the glue bond could be pulled apart by the relatively weak force of a bending or curling tab. Yet, I seem to be witnessing that happen. Low or borderline temps. probably exacerbate the curling process. But, if the glue bond is strong enough one would be OK.
Note that when one lowers the temp. sufficiently the vinyl becomes almost brittle. I left a plank just lying on a work bench in my unheated garage for a day or so and then tried to flex it along its length. It literally "cracked" like a piece of peanut brittle. At low enough temps. (20s, 30s) therefore I don't see how there could be any curling. If one stretched a rubber band and then froze it, would it recoil?
The curling process probably occurs relatively slowly with temp. change. If the temp. is lowered rather quickly, over a matter of a few hours, I doubt that they will curl in that time. And if temp. is lowered enough, fast enough, they will likely become inflexible and never curl. This may explain why the planks do not separate (or curl) in my unheated garage and also explain the reports of them surviving nicely in unheated homes in Minnesota winters.
Curling could, of course, theoretically also be a result of a "memory" which a plank may have because of previous handling or perhaps of previous exposure to different temps. It might also be that the planks are inherently unstable. One could speculate that some planks are created in a way that the material is non-homogeneous, and that, when removed from the weight of other planks in a box, they begin spontaneously to change shape. One might also wonder about possible solvent evaporation over time.
Of course, this is all speculation.
BTW, the bent-tab-Konecto plank is now clearly lifting. It took about 4 days after the weights were removed. So much for the idea that, if the planks are held together for 48 hours then a chemical reaction will occur and a tighter bond will form that will better resist pulling apart.
To this day, no amount of speculatin or theorizing on my part can explain why I did not see 6 planks, equilibrated and put together at basement temps., curl or lift or pull apart on the basement floor for 10 days. Two sets of two planks similarly treated have also been lying on my basement flloor for several weeks and have also not lifted or curled or pulled apart. Other than not being rolled and not being part of a much larger sheet I believe they were treated the same as the planks on the rest of the basement floor, the ones that are virtually all lifting. I cannot explain this observation. And I really don't believe it can be due to lack of rolling.
..................I didn't think I needed to acclimate them to closer locations in the same upstairs space, before gluing them together, but I cannot be sure it would not have made a difference. I doubt that temps. could differ from one place to another by more than 1 degree?? With the ordinary cycling of a furnace off and on the temperatures in a house I think normally go up and down by a few degrees in any case.
It brings up a question, I suppose. In a larger open space does one need to acclimate these planks for 48 hours within, let's say, 10 feet of where one is going to lay them?
If they were acclimated close to the living conditions you met the requirements, as long as the minimum conditions were met. They simply don't want people buying the Konecto (or any other flooring product for that matter) that has been stored in a warehouse at 45 degrees and 75% humidity and taking it into a warm home with 40% humidity and starting the installation that day.
The only two issues I see are the temperature of the slab at the time of installation and any possible moisture issues. The glue bond can be affected by temperature and moisture.
(I saw that you did do the CC test after the fact.)
Many vinyls want to shrink. I figure that old vinyl floors often have curled edges because there is paper on the bottom layer and vinyl on the top layer.... like the bi-metal effect you mentioned.
If they made a sandwich of the top portion of the plank like in my drawing to keep it from curling, I think the sandwich would need identical vinyl composition and thicknesses for both of those layers. I don't think that the top wear layer is thick enough to have any real effect as far as curling goes. I figure if that top sandwich was done, the base material under it could be of a different material as long as it was resistant to shrinkage.
If they said the temperature needs to be greater than 65 degrees, in my opinion, since temperature seems to be critical, they should have stated 64.25 degrees on the instructions.
65 degrees would not be noticed much by anyone. Now if they said 64.6 degrees in the instructions, it would really catch peoples attention and emphasize the importance of temperature at installation time.
The thing is that the warranty requirements for temperature have been changed over time. I discussed that earlier in this thread. The instructions I received in the boxes said one thing. The current temp. requirements are not the same.
...good idea Lo, kindda like the Amtico construction. A solid plastic middle core...
I'd probably cost Konecto too much if I was working for them in their R&D department. 
