Konecto Casa edges coming apart

Lifsabsurd · December 4, 2009, 11:00 AM

I have appreciated the advice and I have learned some things. I may even decide to rent an infrared thermometer, if possible, to measure the slab temperature now that I know how to do it. But I am already certain that the floor is colder than the air in the basement. The ambient temperature dropped into the 20s in the St. Louis area. I have no doubt that the basement floor temperature dropped with it. My question is: why does the manufacturer even recommend putting this in basements if the bonds break when the floor temp. falls. Hell, even my house floors are colder in the winter regardless of where the thermostat is set. Aren't everyone's? Maybe the bonds will re-form during temperate times like spring and summer and only break during winter and summer??

Lifsabsurd · December 4, 2009, 11:04 AM

Error correction. I meant temperate times like spring and *fall*, of course, compared to winter and summer.

rgfloor · December 4, 2009, 11:23 AM

I will say I was in error also, the 10/2009 install instructions state that a plastic sheet (6 mil) MAY be used.

The owner of Indiana Floors I believe is Hugh Scott, who at one time was a member here but has not been around for several years.

If I may ask, what kind of rolling was done? Were the seams rolled and what kind of a roller? Was it one like this?

rusty baker · December 4, 2009, 11:46 AM

You are right. Hugh Scott owns Indiana Floors LLC.

Lifsabsurd · December 4, 2009, 01:33 PM

It was a hand seam roller that looks similar to your picture, yes. And similar to the kind Indiana Floors sells for use. I rolled the planks over the upper lip *next* to the line of separation of planks and also over the line of separation itself. I tried to roll first in a direction away from other, attached planks, so as to smooth out the connection and not leave any "bubbles". I then rolled in both directions several times. I put my weight on the roller and pressed as hard as I could. I weigh over 200 pounds. And I also rolled them with a rented 100 pound vinyl tile roller as well. On Hugh Scott's advise I tried to be careful to use the 100 pound roller at least every 45 minutes and to roll in all directions. I have the receipts for the rental of the roller. It took me roughly a week and a half to do the whole job and, because a few planks had come loose during that time, I became more and more fanatical about rolliing them. Nevertheless, the ones installed later, and rolled like hell, are also loose now.

What I know is that the planks certainly *appeared* to be sticking together very tightly during installation. As I wrote before, occasionally I had to separate one because it was not properly positioned. In all such cases, pulling the planks apart was very difficult, i.e., they certainly appeared to be stuck well together. It seems to me that they *were* stuck together initially and that something, lkely temperature change, caused a later separation.

I will also note that I have used a hair dryer to heat some of the loose planks and then I have rerolled them like hell, both by hand and with the 100 pound tile roller. I have put my own weight on the seams as well. I have also rerolled many loose ones without using heat. They all just come loose again. The only thing that keeps them down is the repair glue. But lifting up edges and using repair glue on potentially about 675 planks is not an appealing idea to me. And I would probably have to buy dozens of more bottles of the repair glue. Furthermore, the long edges are also coming loose and in the end it might mean having to glue the entire periphery of every plank.

Here is a poor man's experiment I might try. Bond two planks together at room temperature upstairs in a house. Then nail them both tightly to a backing such as a 1x12 so that they cannot move together. This would perhaps simulate their situation as part of a large unmoving sheet. Then place them in a cool environment, such as a refrigerator and determine if they can maintain their bond as they shrink. What would be more interesting to me is to do this same test on my own planks and on some samples that have supposedly had no problems (the "good" plank control). If one found my planks separating and the "good" ones not, then it would convince me that there are problems with glue batches.

stullis · December 5, 2009, 01:57 PM

I have taken some pieces and stuck them in an oven and stuck them is a freezer cycling several times and had no issue with the planks staying stuck together. Should make you go hmmmm as to why all these issues on concrete floors.

Lifsabsurd · December 5, 2009, 07:21 PM

When you did such testing did you put any stress on the glue bonds? If two planks or pieces of plank are stuck together and if they are allowed to move together as they shrink or expand with temperature, I would expect that there might be no force to pull apart the glue bond. But when planks are part of a large sheet on the floor and they shrink or expand with temperature I would expect the glue bonds to be stressed as the planks shrink or expand in a way such that adjacent planks cannot move together with all the planks around them trying to hold together on opposing sides.

To your knowledge have all the reported problems been over concrete? Alaskan Mommy reported documenting adhesion failure in which everything was done by the book and the planks still separated. Was that over concrete?

rgfloor · December 5, 2009, 07:42 PM

Lifsabsurd said

To your knowledge have all the reported problems been over concrete? Alaskan Mommy reported documenting adhesion failure in which everything was done by the book and the planks still separated. Was that over concrete?

If I recall that was over a wooden floor, but what was the temperature?

It was in Alaska!!

Every failure I have seen has been over concrete, and all have been low temps or borderline. Usually NO records of temps or MC.

Document, document, pics of temp, MC, rolling, etc!!! It is the only way to protect yourself.

Lifsabsurd · December 5, 2009, 08:07 PM

Konecto Sierra Problems Failure

Apparently at least part of the problem that Alaskan Mommy had was initially over a wooden, upstairs subfloor also. So, it apparently is not always a concrete-related problem. And she claims the (presumably room, air) temperatures were in the 70s. The one explanation that is consistent with all the information I have is the theory that there is a problem with quality control of the glue's adhesive strength and that some batches of glue are defective in the sense of not being able to withstand normal limits of stress as the planks expand and contract. That is what Alaskan Mommy seems to have alleged. And the company settled out of court. The thing is this. The company surely has known about this problem for some time and had a chance to investigate it. They surely have researchers employed to do this. No? Do they still not know what the problem(s) is/are?

stullis · December 6, 2009, 11:43 AM

To them it is an "acceptable" failure rate.

Of course there is NO acceptable failure rate for installers and/or home owners.

In my tests I tried pulling the bond apart with my hands both laterally and peeling. I felt there was plenty of strength to the bond on both. This was with their Sierra Plank line.

They did have some issues with their tile products initially and had delayed introducing the line in my area due to that issue.

I have seen these same issues on wood or over existing vinyl floors in the Home Depot version called Allure.

rgfloor · December 6, 2009, 05:57 PM

So, Scott, having seen these issues, what do you attribute them too?

As a long time installer I think everyone would value your input.

You see you cared enough to go and get some material to work with and do your own test, not many installers or even inspectors are willing to do that, I commend you!

Lifsabsurd · December 6, 2009, 06:37 PM

I too would like to know your opinion of what causes the failures. Do you believe that it is always installer error? Not enough rolling? Is it temperature? Are there bad batches of glue? Surely it can't generally be a water vapor problem if it happens over wood or other vinyl also.

I am likely going to buy an infrared thermometer since I have not found a place that would rent one. The thing is I doubt I will ever use it for anything else. And I will likely buy the calcium chloride water vapor test kits tomorrow from a contractors' supply house that I have found that will sell them to me, but I will be very surprised if the problem is water vapor.

What I would really like to know is how many of the professionals in this forum have installed planks in a basement, directly over concrete, in a state that has really cold winters, and has never seen a problem with separation when the outdoor temperatures drop in the winter. Also, just how new is Konecto (or Allure)? How long has it been used in cold state climates? Has it mostly been used in places like Florida, or soutern California? Has it been tested over many winters now? And mostly not had a problem?

rgfloor · December 6, 2009, 06:57 PM

I believe it was introduced in mid 2006, it has been used in most all climates.

Overstock.com has several inexpensive ones. Also check e-bay.

http://www.overstock.com/search?keyw...rchType=Header

Barry Carlton · December 6, 2009, 08:01 PM

Lifsabsurd said

I too would like to know your opinion of what causes the failures. Do you believe that it is always installer error? Not enough rolling? Is it temperature? Are there bad batches of glue? Surely it can't generally be a water vapor problem if it happens over wood or other vinyl also.

I am likely going to buy an infrared thermometer since I have not found a place that would rent one. The thing is I doubt I will ever use it for anything else. And I will likely buy the calcium chloride water vapor test kits tomorrow from a contractors' supply house that I have found that will sell them to me, but I will be very surprised if the problem is water vapor.

What I would really like to know is how many of the professionals in this forum have installed planks in a basement, directly over concrete, in a state that has really cold winters, and has never seen a problem with separation when the outdoor temperatures drop in the winter. Also, just how new is Konecto (or Allure)? How long has it been used in cold state climates? Has it mostly been used in places like Florida, or soutern California? Has it been tested over many winters now? And mostly not had a problem?

I do not want to take you off track, but you will probably find many uses for the thermometer. Checking for leaks around windows, checking grill heat, the uses are many.

And when you do the CC tests, if you do not have a scale most post offices and/or pharmacy's will weight the petri dishes for you. Then go on line and use the formula tables or calculators to compute the emissions.

b

Lifsabsurd · December 6, 2009, 08:20 PM

Thanks for the reference to infrared thermometers. I have noted that there are some inexpensive ones, but the thing is this. My local Home Depot has two Ryobi models in stock. One is only about $30.00, the other is about $70.00. The more expensive one claims accuracy to plus or minus 2 degrees Farhenheit, which is perhaps not too bad, but not exceptionally good either. The cheaper one claims accuracy only to plus or minus 5 degrees Celcius, which tranlates to about 9/5 x 5 = roughly 9 degrees F. If it is only accurate to plus or minus 9 degrees F then I doubt it is going to be useful for my purpose. The really good ones in fact seem to cost upwards of $150 to more than $200 and they claim much better specs for accuracy. What I really wish I could do is just rent a really good one for a few hours to get some really accurate readings, but they are apparently not a rental item at local equipment rental places. I may just wind up settling for the $70 Ryobi.

Since I might never use it for anything else, I suppose I could get away with buying a $200 item, taking it home, using it for an hour and then returning it, claiming I didn't like it for some reason. But I won't. I'm so fed up with all the dishonest people in this country I could puke. And the last thing I want is to be one of them.

So you think the stuff has been around about 3 years. If temperature were the problem then I would expect even more failures to have shown up by now, but maybe they have and simply have not surfaced yet. Given the experience of Alaskan Mommy, where she seems to have ruled out things like temperature as being the problem, perhaps the best guess is her theory, i.e., a problem with quality control of glue batches.