Konecto Casa edges coming apart

[Lifsabsurd]

Hmm. Interesting points. The instructions with the moisture test kits say:

"Prior to placement of the tests, the actual test area should be clean and free of all foreign substances. All residual adhesives, curing compounds, sealers, paints, floor coverings, etc. should be removed by using approved OSHA work practices."

They say to expose a 20 by 20 inch area to these conditions for 24 hours prior to the test being started. They don't even say to sand it, but I thought that would be a good way of cleaning off such potential surface materials as they name without introduciong water. I have also read that one should NOT remove a large amount of the surface concrete. Sanding it with medium grade paper seemed to remove any foreign materials. How do you recommend "cleaning" or preparing it for the test?

Note that you are telling me to do the testing "right" by tearing up the tile, and another poster is telling me it might void the warranty if I do these tests and manipulate the tile. I am a retired research scientist who is used to investigating things on my own. I would just like to know the truth, if possible, and as soon as possible, about the cause of the problem. Alaskan Mommy did major investigating on her own and won a settlement.

In any case, my retailer, Hugh Scott, is aware that I will be doing the moisture testing. He has not told me not to do it, or that it will void the warranty. But, if I tear up tile now, and if Konecto representatives ever do come to inspect it, that just might be used to void the warranty. I should think that, if Konecto reps. wanted in the future to test the slab for water vapor problems, whatever I do now would not prevent them from doing valid tests in the future. Note that it was also Hugh Scott, the retailer, who first told me to roll back the sheet at a corner and look for moisture. I would think then that rolling back the sheet at a corner would not void the warranty. He also suggested another test for me to do on my own for moisture testing - to invert a spare piece of plank and duct tape it to bare concrete, and check after a few days for concrete discoloration below it. He seemed to want some information or documentation (he asked for the pictures also) to include in a warranty claim. At no point did he indicate that I should not do the testing I proposed to him. Do you think I should not trust him?

[Tandy Reeves]

I join rgfloor and am out of this thread.

[Jim McClain]

At least part of the problem is that the material was not installed according to the instructions - MINIMUM 60 degrees on the concrete. I don't understand all this up-in-arms- stuff when you don't follow the recommended installation methods. You apparently don't maintain proper temperatures in the space either.

Now, pardon me if you actually did install on a slab that was at least 60 degrees, but I can't read all your posts because you have the same problem I do - we talk too much. Less is more. Just the facts.

Also, scientists, teachers and lawyers always seem to over-think these things. If you are one of these, surely you know how to do research. You are doing plenty now, but where was all the research for the installation instructions before you started? Even Hugh Scott would have provided them if you'd asked.

I know it might seem confusing to get some of the information from these guys, but you are talking to a bunch of flooring pros who get paid to dig into these kinds of problems. Sometimes it comes as an after-thought to mention you really should follow the chain of responsibility or you will void your warranty. You are not a pro and your attempts to find fault or reason may not hold up in the claims process.

My advice is to take pictures with a real camera - that thing you used looks like it might be a toy or some crappy cell phone camera. Get good, clear shots that are not re-touched or edited and use them as your evidence to get the retailer, distributor or manufacturer to begin the process of determining what the cause of the problem is. Or hire a flooring inspector yourself: FITS Certified Inspectors Directory for Missouri | Flooring Inspection Training Services, Inc.

It should be a red flag to you when pros that have been trying to help are now starting to back away. Keep it simple. Yeah, see? I told you I talked too much. But do as I say, not as I do. Stop messing in areas you don't belong as a consumer trying to initiate the claims process. All you need is some pictures. Good ones. Ask your retailer what he needs to begin the claim. If you don't get action in a reasonable time, move up to the distributor, then the manufacturer. If you aren't satisfied, call an inspector and he/she will help you file a claim.

Jim

[inspect1]

I don't post much here but I do lurk. As an inspector this is a no-brainer, even Hughie a ... never mind, knows what this is. You have admitted that the temp of your concrete slab is below the recommended temp. requirements. The following is a quote from Konectos install literature.

Temperature: The room temperature and the sub floor temperature must be between 65° and 85 ° Fahrenheit. Maintain proper temperature for 48 hours before and after installation. The building’s heating and air-conditioning system should be turned on at least one week before installation. Failure to follow these guidelines may result in an installation failure (i.e. flooring may expand or contract resulting in gapping). Konecto is an interior product only, and must be installed in a temperature controlled environment, maintained between 65 and 85 degrees F. Please keep in mind a concrete floor can be up to ten degrees colder than the actual room temperature

With that information the manufacturer will say "NO DEAL".

Give it up you made a costly mistake. See ya, bye!!!!

[Al Gladden]

i agree, it is 100% installation failure.. that is why you pay someone to do it the right way..

[BrianM]

inspect1 said I don't post much here but I do lurk. As an inspector this is a no-brainer, even Hughie a ... never mind, knows what this is. You have admitted that the temp of your concrete slab is below the recommended temp. requirements. The following is a quote from Konectos install literature. [B]Temperature: The room temperature and the sub floor temperature must be between 65° and 85 ° Fahrenheit. Maintain proper temperature for 48 hours before and after installation. The building’s heating and air-conditioning system should be turned on at least one week before installation. Failure to follow these guidelines may result in an installation failure (i.e. flooring may expand or contract resulting in gapping). Konecto is an interior product only, and must be installed in a temperature controlled environment, maintained between 65 and 85 degrees F. Please keep in mind a concrete floor can be up to ten degrees colder than the actual room temperature With that information the manufacturer will say "NO DEAL". Give it up you made a costly mistake. See ya, bye!!!!

****************************** *******
Those are my general thoughts exactly. It's simply a matter of being too cold in that basement at the slab level for that bond to ever be consistently secure so here and there the seams start popping as the floor swells and shrinks.

I think he should give up on all his (scientific) efforts to support some kind of legal claim on a refund or replacement. In this case his best bet is to try to negotiate some compromise that recognizes his own error and allows the retailer and factory a chance to meet him somewhere in the middle for their part in the calamity. My experience with dozens of manufacturers has been very positive so long as we approach the management and reps with a good dose of respect and humility. We're never 100% in the clear on any of these things.

[Barry Carlton]

Please forgive me for disagreeing somewhat.

This was marketed and purchased as a DIY floor. The parameters for a DIY installation surely should not be as rigid as for a professionally installed floor. With all the failures throughout the country there must be some common denominator and I do not think it is the DIY.

Marketing by the manu's certainly must come into consideration in spite of the fine print requirements that the average consumer does not and can not understand or possibly meet.

I think this consumer has a legit complaint. Hopefully the claim if turned in and accepted will be considered objectively. He seems to have done his research and homework. What more can a DIY do with a marketed DIY product?

b

[Barry Carlton]

Jim McClain said At least part of the problem is that the material was not installed according to the instructions - MINIMUM 60 degrees on the concrete. I don't understand all this up-in-arms- stuff when you don't follow the recommended installation methods. You apparently don't maintain proper temperatures in the space either. Now, pardon me if you actually did install on a slab that was at least 60 degrees, but I can't read all your posts because you have the same problem I do - we talk too much. Less is more. Just the facts. Also, scientists, teachers and lawyers always seem to over-think these things. If you are one of these, surely you know how to do research. You are doing plenty now, but where was all the research for the installation instructions before you started? Even Hugh Scott would have provided them if you'd asked. I know it might seem confusing to get some of the information from these guys, but you are talking to a bunch of flooring pros who get paid to dig into these kinds of problems. Sometimes it comes as an after-thought to mention you really should follow the chain of responsibility or you will void your warranty. You are not a pro and your attempts to find fault or reason may not hold up in the claims process. My advice is to take pictures with a real camera - that thing you used looks like it might be a toy or some crappy cell phone camera. Get good, clear shots that are not re-touched or edited and use them as your evidence to get the retailer, distributor or manufacturer to begin the process of determining what the cause of the problem is. Or hire a flooring inspector yourself: FITS Certified Inspectors Directory for Missouri | Flooring Inspection Training Services, Inc. It should be a red flag to you when pros that have been trying to help are now starting to back away. Keep it simple. Yeah, see? I told you I talked too much. But do as I say, not as I do. Stop messing in areas you don't belong as a consumer trying to initiate the claims process. All you need is some pictures. Good ones. Ask your retailer what he needs to begin the claim. If you don't get action in a reasonable time, move up to the distributor, then the manufacturer. If you aren't satisfied, call an inspector and he/she will help you file a claim. Jim

WOW!!!!!!!

That must make him feel welcome!?!?!?!?

b

[Lo Down]

barrycarlton said Please forgive me for disagreeing somewhat. This was marketed and purchased as a DIY floor. The parameters for a DIY installation surely should not be as rigid as for a professionally installed floor. With all the failures throughout the country there must be some common denominator and I do not think it is the DIY. Marketing by the manu's certainly must come into consideration in spite of the fine print requirements that the average consumer does not and can not understand or possibly meet. I think this consumer has a legit complaint. Hopefully the claim if turned in and accepted will be considered objectively. He seems to have done his research and homework. What more can a DIY do with a marketed DIY product? b

I'm with you on this one Barry.
Products aimed at the DIY market is for simple installations under normal conditions................. but how would a consumer know what is normal?

Usually, more detailed installation instructions will be found online at the manufacturers website in a PDF.

But what if the consumer only reads the often limited installation instructions from the carton and didn't realize better info was available?

I think this consumer has a right to something on this........... not a 100% replacement maybe, but something. If he's an engineer of any kind I would bet he thinks "above average" and I would give him the benefit of a doubt on his claims here.

I bet if the installation instructions on the carton had strongly emphasized the most important installations requirements written in bold red type............. the DIYer would be scared away because it would then seem too technical. ................ and a scared DIYer is not what the manufacturers want.

[Jim McClain]

barrycarlton said WOW!!!!!!! That must make him feel welcome!?!?!?!? b

Sorry, I sure didn't mean to come off unwelcoming. I just had my own opinions as to the course this discussion has taken. After reading as much as I could, it just seemed like the instructions weren't followed and the OP was looking for someplace to put the blame. But I also realize we all make mistakes and I certainly understand the desire to help the OP through the resolution of the problems. But somewhere in there, the determination of responsibility has to be arrived at. That couldn't be discovered without bias if the home owner/installer was doing all the testing. It should be done independently.

Sometimes what the consumer/DIYer needs to hear isn't always what they want to hear. Sometimes we have to tell them when they are doing something wrong. In this case, I think a formal complaint needs to be persued and his testing may jeopardize that process.

barrycarlton said Please forgive me for disagreeing somewhat. This was marketed and purchased as a DIY floor. The parameters for a DIY installation surely should not be as rigid as for a professionally installed floor. With all the failures throughout the country there must be some common denominator and I do not think it is the DIY. Marketing by the manu's certainly must come into consideration in spite of the fine print requirements that the average consumer does not and can not understand or possibly meet.

That's a whole 'nother topic and a really good one at that. But there are instructions for the DIYer and they are pretty straight forward. I'm not convinced that the manufacturer's requirements are that difficult for the average consumer/DIYer to understand and follow. That's not to say they are fair or that the marketing tactics shouldn't be questioned.

I think this consumer has a legit complaint. Hopefully the claim if turned in and accepted will be considered objectively. He seems to have done his research and homework. What more can a DIY do with a marketed DIY product?

I agree there is a legitimate complaint. But only by following the requirements of the claims process will a determination be made as to who is responsible and by how much. I think the process can be harmed if the consumer/DIYer does the invasive testing and proper inspection to discover the facts that we all know takes the training and expertise of a professional inspector. The product might be DIY, but the claims process, inspection and analysis isn't DIY.

Jim

[Lifsabsurd]

Well. I have followed the most recent spate of comments/discussion from several posters. The points are interesting. I would comment as follows:

I read quite a bit of the literature and information about Konecto installation, including most of the online info. I must admit though that I never read or at least don't remember reading info that the subfloor had to be above 60 degrees. In fact, in the last discussion I had over the phone with my retailer he stated that it was AIR temp. that one goes by, that everyone understood that slab temps. may be lower, and that measuring slab temps. was not very relevant. Can someone supply the reference to the actual source of this information concerning subfloor temps.? Does the literature tell DIYers that they need to *measure* subfloor temps.? Does it give a recommendation for how to do that? Can someone give me the actual reference from Konecto that states that the SUBFLOOR temp. must be above 60 degrees? Is it reasonable to sell to a DIY installer during the fall or winter then for a basement installation in a location such as St. Louis where the winters are quite cold?

There seems to be a certain degree of condescension towards DIYers coming from some of the flooring pros on this group. I can understand that up to a point. But I don't think one should assume that all DIYers are hopelessly stupid. I have a doctoral degree in my own field.

[Lifsabsurd]

I went back and checked Konecto's installation instructions checklist PDF online:

http://www.konectousa.com/files/install_checklist.pdf

There is indeed a line in the checklist PDF that refers to subfloor temps. being between 65 and 85 degrees for installation. I either missed it or did not give it sufficient consideration. Curious to me that it took so long for someone to point this out to me. My slab temp. then was probably borderline during installation.

So, the information that I received from others that it is only room air temp. that is used to evaluate for installation purposes, is not correct.

In a climate such as that around St. Louis, and a typical basement here, the slab temp. is most likely generally less than 65 degrees in the late fall or winter. So, it seems then that these planks are not suitable for a typical basement installation in most parts of the country during colder weather. I wonder if places like Home Depot are selling to DIYers during the winter? And whether they are advising consumers against basement installations during cold weather months?

Thanks for the advice from everyone. It looks at this point like it is my problem.

[kylenelson]

I would still consider a claim on your product. even if you were a degree or two below what is spec'd you still have quite the serious failure on your hands with a product that is still relatively new to most (including alot of the people commenting on it in this thread). It's still in it's baby stages and the installation procedures are still changing as the manufacture sees how their product performs in real life installations with problems such as yours.

Don't get discouraged from coming on here to discuss flooring, everyone's just trying to help. DIY'er or not. Trust me when I say that all the pro's here make mistakes as well and it seems like yours was at least an honest one. Most diy'ers probably don't even roll this product or take near the care that you did to making sure your install was correct. So to that I say, well done.

[Barry Carlton]

kylenelson said I would still consider a claim on your product. even if you were a degree or two below what is spec'd you still have quite the serious failure on your hands with a product that is still relatively new to most (including alot of the people commenting on it in this thread). It's still in it's baby stages and the installation procedures are still changing as the manufacture sees how their product performs in real life installations with problems such as yours. Don't get discouraged from coming on here to discuss flooring, everyone's just trying to help. DIY'er or not. Trust me when I say that all the pro's here make mistakes as well and it seems like yours was at least an honest one. Most diy'ers probably don't even roll this product or take near the care that you did to making sure your install was correct. So to that I say, well done.

Ditto

b

[Lifsabsurd]

kylenelson said I would still consider a claim on your product. even if you were a degree or two below what is spec'd you still have quite the serious failure on your hands with a product that is still relatively new to most (including alot of the people commenting on it in this thread). It's still in it's baby stages and the installation procedures are still changing as the manufacture sees how their product performs in real life installations with problems such as yours. Don't get discouraged from coming on here to discuss flooring, everyone's just trying to help. DIY'er or not. Trust me when I say that all the pro's here make mistakes as well and it seems like yours was at least an honest one. Most diy'ers probably don't even roll this product or take near the care that you did to making sure your install was correct. So to that I say, well done.

Thanks for your comments.

Personally, I doubt that the manufacturer is going to offer any help at all. They seemed to respond to Alaskan Mommy only when she lawyered up and did an extensive demonstration of her claims. I hate lawyers. And, if it is correct that one is supposed to measure subfloor temp., and if that is supposed to be above 65 degrees, then they will allege that such a condition was not met. In fact, I can't really say for sure what the temp. of the concrete was during the actual installation days, but it probably was borderline.

It is interesting to me that this comes down to a question of measuring subfloor temperature and not just relying on room temperature. Most DIYers are not going to be in a position to readily measure subfloor temp.

Furthermore, I reread the instructions that came in the box. Concerning temperature it says, and this is an exact quote:

-------------------
Temperature: Flooring and subfloor room temperature should be between 65 (degrees) and 85 (degrees) Fahrenheit. Maintain proper temperture for 48 hours before and after installation. After that, maintain temperatures between 55 (degrees) F and 85 (degrees) F. The building's heating and air-conditioning system should be turned on at least one week before installation. Failure to follow these guidelines may result in an installation failure (i.e. flooring may expand or contract resulting in gapping). Konecto is an interior product only, and must be installed in a temperature controlled environment, between 65 and 85 degrees F.
------------------ End Quote.


I read that first line to my wife and asked her to interpret it for me. She said it was ambiguous.

Does "Flooring and subfloor room temperature" mean:

flooring temperature, and subfloor temperature, and room temperature?

Or does it mean:

flooring temperature and the temperature of the subfloor room?

If one interprets it to mean the latter, then, to the best of my knowledge, the condition was met.

Note that the phrase 'room temperature' means the temperature of the air in the room. Why did they use the phrase "subfloor room temperature"? If they meant to indicate subfloor temp., why did they not write "subfloor temperature"?

Apparently my retailer believed that measuring room temperature was sufficient. So did I. We both knew that the slab temp. would be lower. But, again, I assumed that did not matter. I brought this question up (slab vs. room temp.) earlier in the discussion in this thread and no one seemed to respond at the time that the subfloor temperature, not just the room temperature, had to be above 65 degrees. I wonder if all the pros in this group honestly knew that?

Note that, the instructions also say that, after 48 hours, it is OK for the temp. to be maintained as low as 55 degrees. I assume that refers to room temp. because it seems silly to expect a person to monitor and maintain subfloor temp. Yet, obviously, in a basement, the slab might be much colder. The measurements I have taken and reported with the infrared thermometer are definitely after 48 hours, and the room temp. is absolutely above 55 degrees, and only by door and windows are slab temps. lower than 55 degrees.

I have never had any faith in warranties in any case. I try to solve my own problems. It may be that I will have to crazy glue 675 planks together individually.

I do wonder about answers to other questions, such as these:

1. Is there something special that occurs during the first 48 hours of the glue bond so that it then can withstand 55 degrees instead of 65 degrees? If I had to guess, and being as honest as I can be, some of these planks probably made it the first two days above 65 degrees, yet they virtually all seemed to separate.

2. If one jacked up the thermostat or if one rented heaters so as to raise the temperature for several days, and if the subfloor temp got above 65 degrees, could one re-roll these planks and leave the temp up for another 48 hours. Would they then withstanad somewhat lower temps.?

3. If the tests indicate (as I think will happen) no apparent moisture problems, will the repair glue (apparently some form of crazy glue) hold these planks together even at St. Louis basement slab temps?

Sorry the post is so long. I don't think in TV sound bites.