"Konecto Casa edges coming apart," in the Vinyl Flooring Q&A forum, begins: "stullis said
Checking subfloor temps, while a good idea, are not part of typical installation instructions. Unless of course that ..."
Checking subfloor temps, while a good idea, are not part of typical installation instructions. Unless of course that is how the company can wiggle out of honoring it's warranty.
I understand that.
Note too that, to the best of my knowledge, Konecto does NOT directly state that DIYers *should*, nor do they even *advise* people to, measure subfloor temps. I personally think they should state that subfloor temps. MUST be measured. But I suppose that would drive off a lot of DIY customers in cold weather areas.
My retailer stated, in the last phone conversation I had with him, that it wasn't necessary for me to buy an infrared thermometer and measuer subfloor temps. My definite impression is that the rules have recently been changed by the company and that not even the professionals all know this yet. Has Konecto sent out cautionary statements to professionals advising them to measure subfloor temperatures directly?
And there is more as far as I can see. The most recent instructions concerning temperature, do not seem to state that room temps. of 55 degrees are acceptable after the first 48 hours. Have they learned that that information was wrong also? As I indicated in another post, the instructions I got in the box clearly indicate that one only has to maintain a temp. of 55 degrees after the first 48 hours. Personally, I wouldn't count on that either.
If I were considering installing Konecto on a concrete basement slab in a cold weather state, and knowing what I know now, I think I would personally want to check the temp. of my slab throughout an entire winter before ordering the planks, and check it in all locations in the basement. And, if I were a retailer I would not sell to anyone in a cold weather state who hasn't done that.
Here is another question I have been wondering about. My home thermostat is set at 75 degrees because I tend to feel cold. My wife would actually like it lower. In fact, I know several people that keep their home thermostats set at 68 degrees, in which case, I seriously doubt that their upstairs floor is everywhere 65 degrees, much less their basement slab. Around doors and windows it is very unlikely to be 65 degrees, in my opinion, in cold weather states. And yet I have a read a post in another DIY thread claiming that the stuff survived without separating in an unheated house in Minnesota during the winter where the temps. were below zero.
I'm in MN and have not experienced any of the problems you are experiencing.
Well, except with an Allure HD product and that was on a wood subfloor installed in a nice warm environment with the prodcut fully acclimated. Makes you go hmmmm.
Yes. Hmm. And do you put these on basement slabs in Minnesota?
Temperature seems to be a factor, but it may not be the *only* factor. If one believes all the information one gets from reading forums such as this, it seems very possible, if not likely, to me that there is at least one other factor involved, and that is possibly quality control of the glue batches. That would seem to have been the problem that Alaskan Mommy encountered.
I am not equipped to properly test the planks I have for glue adhesive strength, but I over-ordered and have 8 unopened boxes with the same lot# available to test. I would like to see professional testing of these particular planks for glue adhesive strength relative to temperature. I would then like to see the results on planks from my lot# compared to analogous results from planks from other lot numbers.
Yes. Hmm. And do you put these on basement slabs in Minnesota?
Temperature seems to be a factor, but it may not be the *only* factor. If one believes all the information one gets from reading forums such as this, it seems very possible, if not likely, to me that there is at least one other factor involved, and that is possibly quality control of the glue batches. That would seem to have been the problem that Alaskan Mommy encountered.
I am not equipped to properly test the planks I have for glue adhesive strength, but I over-ordered and have 8 unopened boxes with the same lot# available to test. I would like to see professional testing of these particular planks for glue adhesive strength relative to temperature. I would then like to see the results on planks from my lot# compared to analogous results from planks from other lot numbers.
That would be interesting to see, but I wonder who it could be sent to? It would certainly need to be sent to an independent lab. I think it would be expensive, because a fair test would require a temperature controlled environment mimicking your own situation.
A test would certainly rule in or out, the temperature being the issue.
Possibly you could buy a few leftover planks from another persons job. Check with a retailer or put an ad in the newspaper or a local free ad paper asking for 2 or 3 Konecto planks of any color............... then do your own test to see how another batch compares to your own.
If you try this, keep in mind that the planks you have on the floor now may be acting as insulation, thus being warmer than contact with the bare slab.
Warning. This post is long. If there are readers who only like sound bites, don't bother.
Who might do the testing? Well, I sent an e-mail to Consumer Reports magazine. They are a consumer protection/product rating group. I have been a subscriber to their magazine for many years, and I also donate to Consumer's Union on a fairly regular basis. It would seem to me that this issue would be a good one for a consumer protection group to investigate. They have engineers that should very well be in a position to professionally test glue adhesive strength. And, I definitely would like to see this done.
In lieu of getting such professional help I am going to do some poor-man testing on my own of my own tile lot vs. some Allure that I may buy from Home Depot as a presumed control. A helper at Home Depot with whom I spoke briefly the other day, told me that they regularly install Allure in basements in the St. Louis area, on slabs, and have had no problems. I find it hard to believe that my basement slab is significantly colder than everyone else's in this area.
However, I now have something else to think about, and that is the question of concrete dust. I concluded the calcium chloride tests today and the highest of three tests was at 5.7 lbs of water per 1000 square feet per 24 hours. This is, to the best of my knowledge the unit commonly used to report the calcium chloride test. At least that is what the instructions with the kits indicate. They give a formula for doing the calculations. The formula includes a constant for adusting the testing area of the test dome (which is roughly .5 square feet in area) to an even square foot, and gives the rest of the calculations, which seem to me to be straight forward. That first test was conducted in a corner, within about 3 feet of the foundation wall. The test instructions actually call for the test to be at least 5 feet from a wall. Note then that this test might potentially be biased AGAINST getting a low result. A second test, also conducted in a corner, gave me 4.36 lbs. A test conducted near the center of the basement gave only 3.36 lbs. In any case they are ALL below the figure of 8 lbs. given by Konecto in its literature as the upper limit. Although these were not professionally conducted I am convinced that I do not have a simple moisture problem.
However, there is more. I also did the pH testing of the concrete. The pH test comes with the kit. That test produced some interesting results and set me to wondering about something. The instructions say to sand, grind, or blast the surface *clean* before testing. The test itself is simple enough. One gets a bottle of pure, unbuffered water in the kit. One pours a teaspoon or so over the concrete, waits 30 seconds and uses a simple litmus paper test for pH by dipping it in the water. The water I believe is unbuffered and its pH will change and reflect that of the concrete. The instructions call for not grinding off more than 1/16th of an inch of concrete, but to try to test the *surface* pH. So, it is my understanding, perhaps an expert will correct me if I am wrong, that IF one has some contaminant on the surface of the concrete, one which can affect pH, one might get a false result (so one needs to clean), but IF one grinds off too deeply into the concrete one will get a very alkaline pH in any case because, of course, cement is very alkaline.
I *sanded* an area of concrete for the first test and the pH test was borderline, i.e., it was about 8 to 9. I used a diamond grinder attachment on an angle grinder for the second test, but I tried to grind very lightly and superficially, not to get as deep as 1/16th of an inch. This test showed a pH of 12. Next I tried testing directly over the uncleaned surface in 2 separate spots. In both cases the pH was near neutrality, i.e., near 7. So, I am frankly not sure how to interpret it. Perhaps the experts will comment.
The results however set me wondering. Just how sensitive is this glue to concrete dust? Concrete dust will have a high pH, of course. I have read that the glue has a dust problem, and that it has a problem with high concrete pH IF that is in combination with a high water vapor pressure from the concrete. But what about concrete dust specifically? And just *how little* dust might it take to affect the glue?
About a week before receiving these planks I had worked on the basement. I used a rotary hammer with a chisel to knock off the seams in the foundation wall. I had planned to cover this with a stucco-like finish in the future. I did this in a period of about two days, and I carefully vacuumed up the concrete fragments at the end of each day. I also covered, with plastic, the boxes of planks when I brought them into the basement. This was several days later. And I revacuumed the floor before ever opening a box of tile. But I am now wondering if *lingering* concrete dust in the air could have caused the problem, more as a pH effect than as a matter of visible dust particles. As I installed the tile I found only very rarely a tiny piece of concrete grit or any other type of debris. Furthermore, the last long day of tile installing was at least 3 weeks after the use of the rotary hammer on the seams. And those tile also are lifting off. ALL the tile are lifting off at this point.
I have read that problems with Konecto are somehow associated with new construction. Is this specifically known to be due to lingering concrete dust in the air? What exactly is it thought to be due to? Have those of you who have had problems with Konecto or Allure often been able to trace this to recent work having been done to disturb concrete, even if the job was not done in a new construction area?
It is not likely there is enough dust lingering in the air to affect the adhesive in the amount of time it takes to remove the paper strip and adhere the next piece. Now, if it was left exposed for an extended period of time I guess it may be possible that the bond may be compromised.
It is not likely there is enough dust lingering in the air to affect the adhesive in the amount of time it takes to remove the paper strip and adhere the next piece. Now, if it was left exposed for an extended period of time I guess it may be possible that the bond may be compromised.
b
I agree, dust is virtually a non issue from the well written description of the situation.
cproader said
............I want this guy on my team............
Lifsabsurd is worse and me, CP. Kudos to this DIYer. From what I have read, he's more qualified than 95% of the professional installers.
Go for the home version "poor man testing" I think it will tell you a lot.
You should be proud........... not many home owners that do self installations have your kind of detailed thinking........... and sadly not enough professionals either.
You were concerned about this topic running on so long. That's OK, as may homeowners may not follow it, some of us installers find the topic a leaning experience. It would sure be nice to discover the actual cause.
Yes it would be very nice to find out what the cause is. Based on the history and my own personal experience I think it is almost certain that this is going to happen to others in the future.
Personally, I want to know with certainty what the cause was so that I have a better idea as to whether there is any realistic fix or any hope of salvaging the stuff. At this point I can't even be certain that using repair glue and literally regluing every plank would work.
If anyone is still following this topic, I got an e-mail today from Consumer Reports magazine. Possibly just a courtesy on their part but it wasn't entirely a form letter. They responded specifically to my e-mail to them concerning the Konecto issue and indicated that technicians and the editor may be evaluating this for possible attention. I think it would be great if they get involved, although, theoretically, their testing may not be in my favor. Meanwhile my retailer was very prompt and helpful in getting a warranty claim filed. We will see what comes of that. And I bought a box of Allure from Home Depot. It is acclimating now and I will be setting up some tests of my own starting soon. Perhaps nothing will come of those tests, or, perhaps I will learn something. It should take a couple of weeks to know.
At Home Depot I was shown some Allure which was installed in an employee lounge in the back of the store, directly over concrete. It felt colder in that lounge than it does in my basement, but perhaps that was my imagination. The group at HD insisted that they install this stuff in St. Louis basements with no problem. They use no insulation on the subfloor. They sell Allure to DIYer customers during the winter. They have seen no problems. They even admitted that the installer did not roll the stuff installed in the employee lounge. And it never pulled apart.
Well, for several weeks now I have been waiting to hear from Konecto regarding the warranty claim. The one customer support guy from Metroflor that I reached directly by phone recently told me what I had heard before, i.e., that Konecto doesn't talk directly to consumers and that I have to go through my retailer. Warranties are never any better than the companies who offer them.
Meanwhile, I have been doing some testing of the Konecto Casa planks versus Allure planks that I bought from Home Depot. The holidays and elective surgery that my wife had recently, slowed me down. And it takes time to observe what happens when a test is started. But, the bottom line is that I have yet to devise a simple test system that uses a small number of planks and results in clear-cut plank separation due to low temperature. The separation probably depends on having a large sheet of planks, i.e., a large number of them, all linked together. In the tests I have done so far with just two planks glued together and stapled to a plywood backing so that they would tend to pull apart when shrinking due to low temperature, I have seen no true separation of either the Konecto or the Allure. One Konecto edge did rise a bit at a 6 inch 'butt' joint, and the Allure did not, but the Konecto did not actually separate even at temperatures down to about 55 degrees. It may be that there are not enough planks involved to achieve enough *total* shrinkage to cause separation? It makes me again wonder if these problems are related to the total size of the sheet or the total area in which the planks are laid, in addition to involving temperature.
One thing I noticed is that the Allure and the Konecto Casa are not, in fact, as I had been told, virtually identical. Both the Konecto and Allure planks, at least the ones which I have, seem to be of the same overall thickness, and the same thicknesses of each of the two vinyl layers, and they both apparently have the same 4 mil wear layer, but the two layers of vinyl are differently constructed. It may be hard to describe without a figure or drawing, but the Allure has a membrane-like, very thin (measurable in mils) layer on the very bottom of the lower layer of vinyl, which the Konecto does not have. This "membrane" can be separately peeled back. There also seems to be a thicker 'coating' on the underside of the upper layer of the Allure, but I wouldn't describe it as a membrane, since it cannot be readily peeled back as a separate layer. I wondered if these layers in the Allure help to prevent shrinkage or curling?
In any case, I may have to try testing the temperature effect using more than a couple of planks immobilized on a bigger sheet of plywood.
