What is the big deal with particle board?

jwolfe · December 25, 2009, 02:38 PM

Hey all, I'm new here. I've got a brick ranch built in 1974. All of the subfloors were done with 1/2 in particle board, which was really common then. Several flooring people have been in to do estimates on the kitchen. I haven't decided on a type of flooring yet, but I like vinyl.

The kitchen has two layers of vinyl, glued right onto the subfloor. Then there is a transition to carpet in the dining room (yuck!). So I have two issues, one is trying to pull up old vinyl and the other, is that if I leave it, I've got a good 1/8 to 1/4 transition from the vinyl to the bare subfloor (suggestions?).

I assume a good underlayment of plywood could go right over the bottom layer of vinyl (the top will peel off easily).

I was just wondering, why is particle board no longer an accepted UL for vinyl. I've seen tons of houses around here with original vinyl on particle board with no probs 30+ years later?

Josh

Jim McClain · December 25, 2009, 03:06 PM

Particleboard is more susceptible to water damage and deterioration than good plywood. It might save you considerable time and energy to just cut a grid pattern in the floor as deep as the bottom of the particleboard and rip it all out in large manageable chunks. Replace the underlayment (it's underlayment, not subfloor) with a good underlayment quality plywood product.

Jim

Barry Carlton · December 25, 2009, 03:13 PM

In case it is subfloor, as this has been used throughout the country in various areas, Jim' thought may not be so easy. So verify whether it is subfloor (what over and attached to the joists), or underlayment (what is attached over the subfloor).

Then we can be of more assistance.

barry

PS

b

jwolfe · December 25, 2009, 04:25 PM

IT IS THE SUBFLOOR, not the underlayment. The vinyl is glued directly to the subfloor, as in every older home in the this area. There was never an underlayment put in. Can I go over top of the vinyl despite the difference in plane?

Jim McClain · December 25, 2009, 04:55 PM

You said it was half-inch. I don't think they have ever used half-inch particleboard for subflooring anywhere. I apologize if I am mistaken, but half-inch particleboard subfloor would have to have a joist system that is, like, 12" on-center spacing - even then I think it would sag between the joists.

Measure the particleboard thickness again. Maybe it's an inch, not a half-inch. Or maybe if you remove a small chunk of the particleboard you will see some 5/8" CDX plywood subfloor (or maybe OSB, but I don't know if they were doing OSB in '74 - I think OSB debuted in '78).

In any case, removing 1 layer of vinyl may be very difficult. Removing 2 layers at the same time might be easier. There isn't much you can install over 2 layers of resilient flooring. Too much movement.

Jim

Barry Carlton · December 25, 2009, 04:59 PM

Jim McClain said

You said it was half-inch. I don't think they have ever used half-inch particleboard for subflooring anywhere. I apologize if I am mistaken, but half-inch particleboard subfloor would have to have a joist system that is, like, 12" on-center spacing - even then I think it would sag between the joists.

Measure the particleboard thickness again. Maybe it's an inch, not a half-inch. Or maybe if you remove a small chunk of the particleboard you will see some 5/8" CDX plywood subfloor (or maybe OSB, but I don't know if they were doing OSB in '74 - I think OSB debuted in '78).

In any case, removing 1 layer of vinyl may be very difficult. Removing 2 layers at the same time might be easier. There isn't much you can install over 2 layers of resilient flooring. Too much movement.

Jim

Jim
I have seen 5/8 used alot both in CA and ID. Wouldn't be a stretch for a builder to cut corners and drop to 1/2.

b

Kman · December 25, 2009, 05:12 PM

If you've got HVAC registers or some other kind of hole in the floor, you can look there to see how many layers of subfloor/underlayment you have and what they're made of.

And pay any attention to Jim. He's kind of a 'loose cannon' around these parts. I'm surprised TFP Admin doesn't delete all his posts.

sodak · December 25, 2009, 05:15 PM

In our area in the 70's they used 1/2 inch plywood then 1/2 inch particle board and all the vinyl was adhered to the particle board and if underlayment was used it was masonite 1/4 inch rough one side smooth on the other.

rusty baker · December 25, 2009, 05:18 PM

In my area they used 3/4 particle board and everything was installed directly on it. I have patched a lot of it in kitchens and baths.

cproader · December 25, 2009, 05:19 PM

Kman said

I'm surprised TFP Admin doesn't delete all his posts.

..........

TFP Admin · December 25, 2009, 06:12 PM

Kman said

And [don't] pay any attention to Jim. He's kind of a 'loose cannon' around these parts. I'm surprised TFP Admin doesn't delete all his posts.

You want I should ban that guy? I haven't banned anyone in a while an' I'm itchin' ta do it.

For those reading this who don't know, the member Jim McClain (me), is like any other member - opinionated, sometimes contrary and free to speak his mind. The administrator TFP Admin (me again), has to be as impartial and level-headed as possible to manage this website. I try to keep them separate, without falling into the schizoid category. I hope most of you can keep them separate too.

Jim

rgfloor · December 25, 2009, 06:18 PM

TFP Admin said

You want I should ban that guy? I haven't banned anyone in a while an' I'm itchin' ta do it.

For those reading this who don't know, the member Jim McClain (me), is like any other member - opinionated, sometimes contrary and free to speak his mind. The administrator TFP Admin (me again), has to be as impartial and level-headed as possible to manage this website. I try to keep them separate, without falling into the schizoid category. I hope most of you can keep them separate too.

Jim

Hmmmmm!!.......Maybe as the Grinch I should delete that TFP admin guys post!!

jwolfe · December 25, 2009, 10:01 PM

It's 5/8 or 3/4, I just took a peek. We're getting off topic a bit. The point is, well I guess from my point of view as a home owner, it seems interesting that everyone wants to lay down 1/4 in over it, when its held the current vinyl just fine for 34 years.

Any suggestions for pulling up the vinyl? In the bathroom, everything came up except the very bottom portion of the original vinyl, which just will not come off. I disagree on it being hard to pull only one layer of vinyl, the moron who layed the second layer did a poor job, and it peels off rather easily. Is it possible to pull that layer off and glue a new layer on top of it? It don't want two layers plus 1/4 inch or three layers in there.

Josh

Jon Scanlan · December 25, 2009, 11:25 PM

jwolfe said

when its held the current vinyl just fine for 34 years.

Any suggestions for pulling up the vinyl? In the bathroom, everything came up except the very bottom portion of the original vinyl, which just will not come off.

Josh

Looking at the vintage of the vinyl, maybe 34 years. Could that vinyl have an asbestos backing? One of the guys here will know about dates asbestos was no longer used for the backings of vinyls and the procedure for removing it if the vinyl is one of those nasty ones

kwfloors · December 26, 2009, 12:31 AM

I know that your bottom layer was installed with adhesive that is no longer available because of the toxic elements in it and as stated it probably had asbestos backing which is the ultimate backing ever made. Your top layer of vinyl was installed with adhesive without the "good" stuff in it and thus it came up better.